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I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
 
I find this verse highly interesting.  Darkness is not the absence of Light.  Darkness is created.  There is also the small issue of good and evil.
 
I though this might make an interesting conversation.

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Darkness is perceptual, rather than actual. It is not about whether or not there is light, but about whether or not that light can be seen. Bathe a room in infrared light, and the room can still be dark. Put a blind man in a brightly lit room, and he is still in the dark.

To add matter to a universe where there is only energy would be to create darkness, by your definition. To create sight would be to create darkness, by mine.

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2 hours ago, mererdog said:

Darkness is perceptual, rather than actual. It is not about whether or not there is light, but about whether or not that light can be seen. Bathe a room in infrared light, and the room can still be dark. Put a blind man in a brightly lit room, and he is still in the dark.

To add matter to a universe where there is only energy would be to create darkness, by your definition. To create sight would be to create darkness, by mine.

 

There is the example of the black hole.  An object with such massive gravity, that light can not escape from it.  I think that qualifies as creating darkness.  

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14 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.
 
I find this verse highly interesting.  Darkness is not the absence of Light.  Darkness is created.  There is also the small issue of good and evil.
 
I though this might make an interesting conversation.

I like the part where H/he admits to creating evil.

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48 minutes ago, Brother Kaman said:

I like the part where H/he admits to creating evil.

 

 

That is a problem for Monotheism.  The Creator of all things -- is the Creator of ALL things.     :mellow:

 

Isaiah 45: 6   That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the Lord, and there is none else.

 

 

Edited by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

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Continuing:  We have learned from Isaiah chapter 45 (above)  -- that God created Darkness.  Now we turn to the opening lines of Genesis.

 

Genesis 1 King James Version (KJV)

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.

 

 

 

What does this tell us?  Look at the sequence.  Darkness is described, before Light is created.  Darkness existed before Light.

 

After Light is created, God divides the Light from the Darkness.

 

Divides?  The way that salt water can be divided between salt and water?  Evidently, Darkness has existence and is not the simple absence of Light.  And Isaiah 45 is clear that God created Darkness.  

 

 

Edited by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

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Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee; but the night shineth as the day: the darkness and the light are both alike to thee.
 
If nothing else, it's an interesting image.  Bright shining darkness.  
 
 
 
 
Edited by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

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19 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

Continuing:  We have learned from Isaiah chapter 45 (above)  -- that God created Darkness.  

The Isaiah passage doesn't use the past tense. It is "creates" not "created." A continuing activity, not a one time thing. This difference is important. Note how the meaning shifts between "Aerosmith creates rock and roll music" and "Aerosmith created rock and roll music."

Divides? The way that salt water can be divided between salt and water?

The following sections have God creating land and using the land to divide the waters from the water. That context makes it seem less like separating out saltwater and more like putting the light and the dark in different places. Since this dividing is presented within the context of creating a day/night cycle, it is easily interpreted to suggest that where you are determines what time it is- which is a fairly sophisticated idea.

Edited by mererdog

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15 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

If nothing else, it's an interesting image.  Bright shining darkness.  

To me, it just reads like a flowery way of saying "You can see in the dark." 

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2 hours ago, mererdog said:

To me, it just reads like a flowery way of saying "You can see in the dark." 

 

Or -- from the God's eye view -- Light and Dark are the same.  They would be, to the entity that created both.  

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2 hours ago, mererdog said:

The Isaiah passage doesn't use the past tense. It is "creates" not "created." A continuing activity, not a one time thing. This difference is important. Note how the meaning shifts between "Aerosmith creates rock and roll music" and "Aerosmith created rock and roll music."

Divides? The way that salt water can be divided between salt and water?

The following sections have God creating land and using the land to divide the waters from the water. That context makes it seem less like separating out saltwater and more like putting the light and the dark in different places. Since this dividing is presented within the context of creating a day/night cycle, it is easily interpreted to suggest that where you are determines what time it is- which is a fairly sophisticated idea.

 

 

I went back and looked.  You're right.  It is present tense.  An excellent observation.  

 

As for your second observation -- maybe.  

 

 

 

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5 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

Or -- from the God's eye view -- Light and Dark are the same.  They would be, to the entity that created both.  

Light and dark live on the same stick just at opposite ends. They are separated by the many shades of false dawns and twilights.

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2 minutes ago, Brother Kaman said:

Light and dark live on the same stick just at opposite ends. They are separated by the many shades of false dawns and twilights.

 

They are interesting verses.  

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19 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

Or -- from the God's eye view -- Light and Dark are the same.  They would be, to the entity that created both.  

The first part of the quote is key to me. "Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee" The rest seems to be expository text fleshing out that point. This would mean it is only really saying that light are dark are the same to God in terms of God's ability to see.

 

I got this impression from the way the passage is punctuated, however, which leaves a lot of room for translation issues. Checking the NIV version gives

"even the darkness will not be dark to you; the night will shine like the day, for darkness is as light to you" This seems to support my original interpretation.

Edited by mererdog

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3 hours ago, mererdog said:

The first part of the quote is key to me. "Yea, the darkness hideth not from thee" The rest seems to be expository text fleshing out that point. This would mean it is only really saying that light are dark are the same to God in terms of God's ability to see.

 

I got this impression from the way the passage is punctuated, however, which leaves a lot of room for translation issues. Checking the NIV version gives

"even the darkness will not be dark to you; the night will shine like the day, for darkness is as light to you" This seems to support my original interpretation.

 

 

Perhaps.  I thought it might make an interesting conversation.  To me, it looks like Light and Dark are separate creations.  Of course, it's not science.  Or physics.  I can't get over plant life being created before the Sun.  It's still interesting.  

 

The question is not what you and I think Light and Dark are.  The question is, what does the Bible say that Light and Dark are?  Obviously, my understanding could be way off.  

 

Remember, these verses were constructed by people, who had no concept of where the Sun goes at night.

 

 

 

 

Edited by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

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As far as plant life goes, I think there are some forms of vegetation that grows in the dark just fine. Fungi seems to do okay, if not better, for example.

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2 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

To me, it looks like Light and Dark are separate creations.  

I think creation has more than one meaning. In one sense, I create darkness every time I step in front of a light. I don't think all uses of the word in the Bible have the same meaning. In terms of original creation...

L

Genesis 1

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 

Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

 

It looks like darkness is given the same status as formlessness and emptiness. Not a thing that was created, but merely an indication that creation was incomplete.

 

 

As for your concern about plants.... If there was light, even if there was no Sun, plants would not necessarily have any difficulty. And the Genesis account puts the creation of light before the creation of plants.

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13 minutes ago, mererdog said:

I think creation has more than one meaning. In one sense, I create darkness every time I step in front of a light. I don't think all uses of the word in the Bible have the same meaning. In terms of original creation...

L

Genesis 1

1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 

Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.

 

It looks like darkness is given the same status as formlessness and emptiness. Not a thing that was created, but merely an indication that creation was incomplete.

 

 

As for your concern about plants.... If there was light, even if there was no Sun, plants would not necessarily have any difficulty. And the Genesis account puts the creation of light before the creation of plants.

 

 

1.  My most advanced Reiki training, made a distinction between Darkness and Shadow.  

 

2.  There is no way that plant life preceded the Sun.  I don't mind in terms of poetry or myth.  In terms of Cosmology, it's absurd.  

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22 minutes ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

2.  There is no way that plant life preceded the Sun. 

Ah. The basic inability to clear the conceptual hurdle. "I do not see how it could be true, therefore it cannot be true. The limits of my imagination are the limits of reality." 

 

And, for the record, I may actually give less credence to the contents of your Reiki training than you give to the contents of the Bible. I do not know it is nonsense. I believe it is, however. That particular conceptual hurdle is too high for me.

Edited by mererdog

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1 hour ago, Key said:

As far as plant life goes, I think there are some forms of vegetation that grows in the dark just fine. Fungi seems to do okay, if not better, for example.

 

Are you seriously suggesting that the Earth was around, before the Sun?  Or the Moon?  Or the stars?  

Edited by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

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