cuchulain

levels of belief

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7 minutes ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

In the best of all possible worlds, it would be enough.  I find that when I am open minded in an exchange, I am often the only open minded one present.  Just for one example, since we are using Dan as an example -- I have lost all track of the times that Dan has insisted that "Atheists believe in nothing."  I know.  It's small of me.  I lose equanimity.

I don't think it small, and Dan can rub a few people the wrong way. He has that gift.
I might have been one of them, but I can't honestly recall. Here's the thing. A person 100% secure with their convictions shouldn't need to debate whether or not the belief of others is true. If they're belief is absolute in their minds and heart, they'd feel secure enough to have room for additional ideas. They'd be comfortable discussing other beliefs without verbally expressing their skepticism.      

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AmberLF   

I think there are levels depending on how educated a person is in history and religion both. Some just go on blind faith, where people take it on word of their pastor or priest without investigating since religious authorities should know. Then you have those who dig to different degrees, some strictly in scriptures while others go cultural and historical, then choose what they think is best and leave it at that. There are those who decide to stick with the core lessons of the holy book in question and take the rest more as mythology with moral and ethical examples and lessons to learn from rather than word for word truth. I guess I've had enough discussions and have overheard enough people chat about it that I'd prefer to believe those who are knowledgeable in history and culture, accept science and still manage to take the lessons as a moral guide than I would those just who just accept. I guess I just think a healthy level of skepticism no matter what your religious leaning is would be prudent, at least in my view. 

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On 4/12/2017 at 6:41 PM, scottedward said:

I know that others believe what they claim. Shouldn't that be enough?

It would be plenty for them to believe in what they claim...if they weren't trying to convince me, sometimes with threat of violence.  If a person wants me to believe what they are saying, they should be able to provide a good reason for me to believe it, other than they believe it as well.  Otherwise I would be doing a lot of waffling back and forth, depending on who was trying to convince me and when.

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Dan56   
On 4/12/2017 at 8:04 PM, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 I have lost all track of the times that Dan has insisted that "Atheists believe in nothing."  I know.  It's small of me.  I lose equanimity.

Everyone believes something, but my point was that Atheist don't believe in nothing God related, no deity, or life after death.

On 4/12/2017 at 8:34 PM, scottedward said:

Dan can rub a few people the wrong way. He has that gift.     

Its an attribute of what I believe, not my fault :)

57 minutes ago, AmberLF said:

 I guess I just think a healthy level of skepticism no matter what your religious leaning is would be prudent, at least in my view. 

I agree in the sense that a person should always wonder, always ponder, and always question what's true.  I'm not skeptical about what I've chosen to believe, but its healthy to always wonder, because we stop learning when we stop questioning. Skepticism is what we're left with at the end of our knowledge, and growth stops where the facts end. 

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47 minutes ago, Dan56 said:

I agree in the sense that a person should always wonder, always ponder, and always question what's true.  I'm not skeptical about what I've chosen to believe, but its healthy to always wonder, because we stop learning when we stop questioning. Skepticism is what we're left with at the end of our knowledge, and growth stops where the facts end. 

However, is it a healthy practice to deliberately voice rejection or disbelief when none of it can be proved, regardless?  There's a difference between constructive feedback (even from a non-believer) and blatant negativity. Regardless of what was really meant, telling an atheist they believe in 'nothing' usually doesn't end with flowers, children, rainbows, and happy puppies belching sunshine.

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3 hours ago, Dan56 said:

Everyone believes something, but my point was that Atheist don't believe in nothing God related, no deity, or life after death.

Its an attribute of what I believe, not my fault :)

I agree in the sense that a person should always wonder, always ponder, and always question what's true.  I'm not skeptical about what I've chosen to believe, but its healthy to always wonder, because we stop learning when we stop questioning. Skepticism is what we're left with at the end of our knowledge, and growth stops where the facts end. 

I don't care what you believe.  Having you tell me what I believe is irritating.

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4 hours ago, AmberLF said:

I think there are levels depending on how educated a person is in history and religion both. Some just go on blind faith, where people take it on word of their pastor or priest without investigating since religious authorities should know. Then you have those who dig to different degrees, some strictly in scriptures while others go cultural and historical, then choose what they think is best and leave it at that. There are those who decide to stick with the core lessons of the holy book in question and take the rest more as mythology with moral and ethical examples and lessons to learn from rather than word for word truth. I guess I've had enough discussions and have overheard enough people chat about it that I'd prefer to believe those who are knowledgeable in history and culture, accept science and still manage to take the lessons as a moral guide than I would those just who just accept. I guess I just think a healthy level of skepticism no matter what your religious leaning is would be prudent, at least in my view. 

 

Welcome to the group.

 

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3 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

Welcome to the group.

 

 

Greetings to you my sister,

I second the sentiment.  Welcome to the group!

In solidarity,

Rev. Calli

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Dan56   
5 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

I don't care what you believe.  Having you tell me what I believe is irritating.

I wasn't telling you what you believe, I was expounding on what you don't believe. And when it comes to God, gods, or deity, you don't believe in nothing.. If I'm wrong, correct me. Otherwise, your just irritated with the truth.

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On 4/14/2017 at 9:27 PM, Dan56 said:

If I'm wrong, correct me.

Okay... 

'You don't believe in nothing' is a double-negative.  There's more, but nobody likes a smarty-pants.

Edited by scottedward

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7 hours ago, scottedward said:

Okay... 

'You don't believe in nothing' is a double-negative.  There's more, but nobody likes a smarty-pants.

You see the situation clearly.  Nothing significant, but irritating.  

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3 hours ago, cuchulain said:

A piece of sand is nothing significant, but in the wrong place it can sure SEEM significant.  

Yes.  That was solid wisdom with good insight.  :thumbu:

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mererdog   
On 4/14/2017 at 11:20 AM, Dan56 said:

Everyone believes something, but my point was that Atheist don't believe in nothing God related, no deity, or life after death.

 

Many atheists believe in life after death. Some believe in reincarnation, some just believe in a sort of vague "there must be something."

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I have never met an Atheist who believes in life after death, any form of reincarnation, or any sort of vague there must be something.  I don't disagree, necessarily, that such could be out there.  Just saying, maybe it isn't many.  

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8 minutes ago, cuchulain said:

I have never met an Atheist who believes in life after death, any form of reincarnation, or any sort of vague there must be something.  I don't disagree, necessarily, that such could be out there.  Just saying, maybe it isn't many.  

Many Buddhists are atheist and believe in reincarnation.  Atheism only refers to non-belief in deities.

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mererdog   
12 hours ago, LeopardBoy said:

Many Buddhists are atheist and believe in reincarnation.

And, oddly enough, the same is true of many Jews. 

Edited by mererdog

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mererdog   
13 hours ago, cuchulain said:

I have never met an Atheist who believes in life after death, any form of reincarnation, or any sort of vague there must be something. 

Correction: No one you have met has described themself that way to you. But does it always come up? I said there were many because I know more than a few. There are even atheists who believe in faeries, although I've only met a few of those....

Edited by mererdog

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AmberLF   
19 hours ago, cuchulain said:

I have never met an Atheist who believes in life after death, any form of reincarnation, or any sort of vague there must be something.  I don't disagree, necessarily, that such could be out there.  Just saying, maybe it isn't many.  

I've talked to a few in a pagan meet up. Interestingly enough one doesn't have to be directly tied to the other.

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Greetings to you all my sisters and brothers,

I believe it's time to have a beer.

I also believe that sometimes we forget that when we are talking matters of faith or lack of faith, we make the very great mistake to thinking we can prove the truth or falsehood of someone's deeply held beliefs in the same way we can prove 2+2=4.  All we can do is explain what we believe and why we believe it, then live out those beliefs as best we can.  

In solidarity,

Rev. Calli 

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