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cuchulain

evidence for the supernatural

53 posts in this topic

On 4/20/2017 at 0:41 PM, mererdog said:

I followed your link.  It's disturbing.  Apparently having scientists explain how science works -- is as useless as Fundamentalists quoting Scripture.  That is not what I was expecting.  

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4 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 Apparently having scientists explain how science works -- is as useless as Fundamentalists quoting Scripture.  

Its the same basic psychology at work. If your audience is not receptive to what you are teaching, you are basically wasting your breath. Even worse, you are kind of innoculating them against your position. And that also means that every time we conclude that something is nonsense, we could be falling prey to the same thing. Because the really nasty part is that we are usually blind to the fact that we are wearing blinders."Disturbing" barely covers it.

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3 hours ago, mererdog said:

Its the same basic psychology at work. If your audience is not receptive to what you are teaching, you are basically wasting your breath. Even worse, you are kind of innoculating them against your position. And that also means that every time we conclude that something is nonsense, we could be falling prey to the same thing. Because the really nasty part is that we are usually blind to the fact that we are wearing blinders."Disturbing" barely covers it.

On one level I get it.  At the same time, it's so counter intuitive, it hurts.  

:wall:

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19 minutes ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

:wall:

Very effective summary. I concur.

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Unfortunately these things rely on experiential knowledge and cannot be reproduced in a lab. So by scientific standards that can never really be "proven" unless a new technology occurs that allows us to catalogue and observe them in repeatable instances. Therefore it is a matter of belief and if you don't believe you most likely won't and if you do then you most likely can't see how others do not. We see in the world that which we desire to see.

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12 hours ago, Stormbringer said:

Therefore it is a matter of belief and if you don't believe you most likely won't and if you do then you most likely can't see how others do not. We see in the world that which we desire to see.

That makes sense until you notice how often people's beliefs shift over time. It is not really rare for people who don't believe to come to believe, nor for people who believe to stop believing. Both of these kinds of events often happen after a deep personal tragedy fundamentally changes how the person is able to see things.

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18 hours ago, mererdog said:

That makes sense until you notice how often people's beliefs shift over time. It is not really rare for people who don't believe to come to believe, nor for people who believe to stop believing. Both of these kinds of events often happen after a deep personal tragedy fundamentally changes how the person is able to see things.

Very true. For clarification I wasn't stating people are incapable of going from non- belief to belief and vice versa or that it is rare. For the context of that statement reference my earlier sentences in which I said "Unfortunately these things rely on experiential knowledge and cannot be reproduced in a lab. So by scientific standards that can never really be "proven" unless a new technology occurs that allows us to catalogue and observe them in repeatable instances.."

 

Quote

Both of these kinds of events often happen after a deep personal tragedy fundamentally changes how the person is able to see things.

Sounds experiential. :)

A worldview shift is unlikely to occur with a conversation. It can happen but that conversation will most likely have surrounding experiences that make the person receptive to that conversation.

 

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3 hours ago, Stormbringer said:

Sounds eexperiential

As is a conversation. 

We usually do not know why we believe what we believe, and when our beliefs shift we often can't pin down a specific cause. I assume this is because any significant shift in belief has a myriad causes. While a single conversation seems unlikely to have a profound effect, in and of itself, it can be a necessary last straw without which there is no broken back. There are also phenomenon like role-modeling, wherein repeated exposure through conversation can allow a person to have a profound impact on another, though not at all necessarily in ways intended...

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1 hour ago, mererdog said:

As is a conversation. 

We usually do not know why we believe what we believe, and when our beliefs shift we often can't pin down a specific cause. I assume this is because any significant shift in belief has a myriad causes. While a single conversation seems unlikely to have a profound effect, in and of itself, it can be a necessary last straw without which there is no broken back. There are also phenomenon like role-modeling, wherein repeated exposure through conversation can allow a person to have a profound impact on another, though not at all necessarily in ways intended...

In my own case, the shifts tend to be gradual.  One day I look up and discover that my beliefs no longer fit my resume.  

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12 hours ago, mererdog said:

As is a conversation. 

We usually do not know why we believe what we believe, and when our beliefs shift we often can't pin down a specific cause. I assume this is because any significant shift in belief has a myriad causes. While a single conversation seems unlikely to have a profound effect, in and of itself, it can be a necessary last straw without which there is no broken back. There are also phenomenon like role-modeling, wherein repeated exposure through conversation can allow a person to have a profound impact on another, though not at all necessarily in ways intended...

It seems like we are agreeing yet debating at the same time... Am I not being clear enough?

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10 hours ago, Stormbringer said:

It seems like we are agreeing yet debating at the same time... 

I rarely either agree with someone completely or disagree with someone completely. You?

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17 minutes ago, mererdog said:

I rarely either agree with someone completely or disagree with someone completely. You?

Safe to be said.

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