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VonNoble

Understanding Islam - Worth The Effort

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scott, that was directed directly at revtim...if you will notice he said it was stupid, bigoted, etc...if someone were more cautious of muslims, which I said I was, so yeah technically he said it obliquely...which is still against forum rules btw.

But in any case, the above was not referenced to you, so why did you take issue? I didn't say anything at all about YOUR debating skills in this post.

And, it says in the rules that debate is encouraged, rudeness, etc...is not. that's paraphrasing. So, if it is encouraged, then it IS for this forum isn't it?

Okay.

You've made your point, and have made it very well. I'll just be sitting over here and minding my own business.

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I think it would bring more light and less heat; if we can make distinctions between different groups within Islam. Talking about "the Muslims" makes no distinctions between very different groups. There are, for instance, the Kurds of Iraq. Good descent people, who are under attack from bat sh*t crazy loons. Or the minority Muslims in Pakistan who are being murdered -- by other Muslims.

Do we speak of "The Christians" without distinction? There must be 10,000 different kinds of Christian. Do we speak of "The Jews" without distinction? No. At least, I don't. Talking about "the Muslims" is not helpful, either.

Edited by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

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First of all, I said that a particular ACTION was bigoted and stupid. If you took offense to that, that's your problem, but I didn't call anyone by those names.

As to my debating skills......this is a debate? I thought we were expressing our opinions.

I believe that Scott was correct in his response. The bigotry and stupidity I referred to were, in fact, IMPLIED, seeing as how I referred to an action, and not specific people.

Thank you for standing up like that, Scott, I appreciate it even if no one else does.

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Understanding the people of South East Asia and particularly the Vietnamese in the 50s and 60s would have been a smart thing to do. Did anyone bother? No. Understanding the Muslims religiously and culturally would certainly be a wise thing to do. Do we bother? No. We hardly bother to understand our children and their evolving culture. We are so arrogant, aren't we?

As far as debate goes, the forum seems to have a debate club. Debates are governed by rules of order and presentation. With the exception of the debate club, these are discussions are quite similar to coffee shop discussions. Opinions are bandied back and forth and everyone who wishes, has the opportunity to learn something from the other. I don't look to "prove" my points, I don't care if anyone agrees with me or not (although I do get warm fuzzies from time to time when one of you do). I offer my opinion and I do not back my opinion up with proof of any kind. My opinion evolves from my having lived on this Earth as long as I have and paid a little bit of attention to what has transpired around me. Proof is for debates. Opinions are for coffee shop discussions. It would be terribly boring if everyone shared the same opinion, wouldn't you say?

Edited by Brother Kaman

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revtim...deepest apologies if I misunderstood your statement. It seemed an oblique way of calling me, as well as a few other people who agree with my opinion, stupid bigots. I am sure you can see why I would infer that, since i just finished saying i was suspicious of muslims, and you claimed anyone who is suspicious of muslims must be a stupid bigot. Anyway, no use arguing about it, you are all quite correct, I don't require anyone on here to agree with me, that would be stupid. I like to debate, and am certainly not trying to hurt feelings, just trying to convey my points to the best of my ability.

I will ask you to forgive me on this one in advance, but I think with all honesty anyone who stumbles onto this topic and sees the posts we all have made about this topic, they would probably assume it was a debate. I dont think I was out of line for that assumption, but if I was I apologize again. I respect your opinion, right along with everyone else's, I just got carried away with what I perceived as a debate.

Thanks to everyone for sharing their opinions, i certainly hope nobody took offense at mine. It is simply a statement of where I stand on the issue, agree or not, that is perfectly acceptable and doesn't hurt my feelings.

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Understanding the people of South East Asia and particularly the Vietnamese in the 50s and 60s would have been a smart thing to do. Did anyone bother? No. Understanding the Muslims religiously and culturally would certainly be a wise thing to do. Do we bother? No. We hardly bother to understand our children and their evolving culture. We are so arrogant, aren't we?

As far as debate goes, the forum seems to have a debate club. Debates are governed by rules of order and presentation. With the exception of the debate club, these are discussions are quite similar to coffee shop discussions. Opinions are bandied back and forth and everyone who wishes, has the opportunity to learn something from the other. I don't look to "prove" my points, I don't care if anyone agrees with me or not (although I do get warm fuzzies from time to time when one of you do). I offer my opinion and I do not back my opinion up with proof of any kind. My opinion evolves from my having lived on this Earth as long as I have and paid a little bit of attention to what has transpired around me. Proof is for debates. Opinions are for coffee shop discussions. It would be terribly boring if everyone shared the same opinion, wouldn't you say?

well, have a warm fuzzy on me then.

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revtim...deepest apologies if I misunderstood your statement. It seemed an oblique way of calling me, as well as a few other people who agree with my opinion, stupid bigots. I am sure you can see why I would infer that, since i just finished saying i was suspicious of muslims, and you claimed anyone who is suspicious of muslims must be a stupid bigot. Anyway, no use arguing about it, you are all quite correct, I don't require anyone on here to agree with me, that would be stupid. I like to debate, and am certainly not trying to hurt feelings, just trying to convey my points to the best of my ability.

I will ask you to forgive me on this one in advance, but I think with all honesty anyone who stumbles onto this topic and sees the posts we all have made about this topic, they would probably assume it was a debate. I dont think I was out of line for that assumption, but if I was I apologize again. I respect your opinion, right along with everyone else's, I just got carried away with what I perceived as a debate.

Thanks to everyone for sharing their opinions, i certainly hope nobody took offense at mine. It is simply a statement of where I stand on the issue, agree or not, that is perfectly acceptable and doesn't hurt my feelings.

Apology accepted, no harm, no foul. I tend to get a little carried away sometimes, so I do apologize if what I said came out wrong, or at least wrong in your eyes. That was certainly not my intent.

And you don't offend me. If you did, I'd have told you. I'm pretty blunt that way.

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I believe that Scott was correct in his response. The bigotry and stupidity I referred to were, in fact, IMPLIED, seeing as how I referred to an action, and not specific people.

Thank you for standing up like that, Scott, I appreciate it even if no one else does.

No problem, brother. Thanks for making a note of it.

I appreciate that, too.

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I never said I was an expert in the Muslim world. But, apparently, you and I have seen different Muslims, and, therefore, garner different results.

I've fought terrorists, and I've had moving discussions with our translators. I've seen good people as well as bad come out of that world. You'll never be able to convince me that they're all bad.

I don't get this info from the media, I go out and get it myself.

That's what you don't understand, Youch. And I don't think you ever will.

Since you know nothing of the Muslims I've met, known and "seen," your point is absurd. But, since you say that we've "seen" different Muslims, do explain their utter lack of intolerance and opposition to the greater jihad of their faith?? Please and thank you, as finding such a kernel of evidence would be very welcomed.

Did I ever attempt to "convince you" "they're all bad?" I'm beginning to think you do not read with the intent to understand.

Please provide the avenue to chose to "go out and get info" yourself?!?!? I think that would be interesting. (B.S., of course, but lets go with it....)

You make a claim of something I don't understand, while not specifically identifying that certain something, then project your desire of stupidity upon me by asserting, as many good liberals do, that any contrary thought must somehow be faulty and lacking.

Pre tell, what is it I don't understand? I lay open and exposed to all comers...bring it on. What am I missing, he/she/it?

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Youch, I think it's fairly obvious now that you don't understand anything.

as to "Go out and get it" I'm talking about information. I rely on my own experiences to tell me the truth, not the media. What the media reports on is always coloured by what they want us to hear.

You talk about muslims as a general statement when I talk about them as individuals. If you'd actually taken the time to get to know one, you'd see I'm right.

And quit calling me he/she/it. You've been told I'm a he, and if you don't take my word, look at my profile on the site.

Edited by revtimothybland

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Since you know nothing of the Muslims I've met, known and "seen," your point is absurd. But, since you say that we've "seen" different Muslims, do explain their utter lack of intolerance and opposition to the greater jihad of their faith?? Please and thank you, as finding such a kernel of evidence would be very welcomed.

Did I ever attempt to "convince you" "they're all bad?" I'm beginning to think you do not read with the intent to understand.

Please provide the avenue to chose to "go out and get info" yourself?!?!? I think that would be interesting. (B.S., of course, but lets go with it....)

You make a claim of something I don't understand, while not specifically identifying that certain something, then project your desire of stupidity upon me by asserting, as many good liberals do, that any contrary thought must somehow be faulty and lacking.

Pre tell, what is it I don't understand? I lay open and exposed to all comers...bring it on. What am I missing, he/she/it?

I've seen variations of your last sentence ad nauseum. It really detracts from your argument.

You speak in absolutes Youch. It's often difficult for me to relate to what you say because of that. (I do not have you on my ignore list ;))

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I do not pretend to be an expert on Islam. I have read the Qur'an, and I am reading It again. I have met a few people who are Muslims (the nature of my work leads me to meet them), and to be honest I do not have any friends who are Muslims. I have also read different Muslim poets, mostly Sufis. I have enjoyed those poets, like I have enjoyed many Christian poets. Now there is one thing I will say about Islam: Islam is vast and very complex, in the same way that most traditional religions are vast and very complex.

I do not pretend to be an expert in Christianity. I have read the Bible, my parents were Christian, my wife and children are Christians, and I love them very much. But the love that I have for my family has nothing to do with the fact that they are Christians. I simply love them. Yet there are certain Christian groups that I dislike; I personally feel that they are not true Christians. My attitude to those Christians is based on what I have observed of them. Does that authorize me to say that all of Christianity is wrong? Christianity like Islam is vast and very complex; no one person can claim that they know what is true Christianity or Islam.

I have adopted the Sanatana Veda Dharma (Hinduism) as my religion. I am one among many. If you had met "traditional" Hindus, you would say: "Hermano Luis, you are not a true Hindu." The Sanatana Veda Dharma is vast and very comples. There is no one on this Earth who can say who is a true Hindu.

We may pass judgement on this or that religion and its followers, but it is only a personal opinion. We can never know the vastnes and complexity of any religion and its followers.

Hermano Luis

Moriviví Hermitage

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I don't think anybody on the globe can honestly carry the distinction of being a 'True' anything, when religion becomes a part of the conversation.

It isn't right, it isn't fair, but it's very very human, which makes doing so sound even less appropriate.

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