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Just read the Wiccan Bible written by A.J. Drew ......... question: when he writes about judgement e.g. going to winterland and summerland: He writes that they decide which place they go. Is "they" meaning the individual or is he referring to the god they choose to worship?

Another question about what he writes : Basically (they can choose to stay or be reborn). does this mean if you go to winterland that you can leave whenever you want and be reborn?

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Just read the Wiccan Bible written by A.J. Drew ......... question: when he writes about judgement e.g. going to winterland and summerland: He writes that they decide which place they go. Is "they" meaning the individual or is he referring to the god they choose to worship?

Another question about what he writes : Basically (they can choose to stay or be reborn). does this mean if you go to winterland that you can leave whenever you want and be reborn?

Hi Mate,

First of all A.J.Drew is not really the best author to read on this subject. He has also converted back to Catholicism and now denounces Wicca.

But I will answer your question, the best I can. It is believed by some that individual souls choose where they reside in the afterlife, and choose the nature of their rebirth. In New Age circles it's called a 'soul contract'.

A lot of Wiccans have this general belief, however it's not universally recognised and is not really an established dogma of Wicca.

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Hi Mate,

First of all A.J.Drew is not really the best author to read on this subject. He has also converted back to Catholicism and now denounces Wicca.

But I will answer your question, the best I can. It is believed by some that individual souls choose where they reside in the afterlife, and choose the nature of their rebirth. In New Age circles it's called a 'soul contract'.

A lot of Wiccans have this general belief, however it's not universally recognised and is not really an established dogma of Wicca.

Does Wicca even have any established Dogma?

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Hi Mate,

First of all A.J.Drew is not really the best author to read on this subject. He has also converted back to Catholicism and now denounces Wicca.

But I will answer your question, the best I can. It is believed by some that individual souls choose where they reside in the afterlife, and choose the nature of their rebirth. In New Age circles it's called a 'soul contract'.

A lot of Wiccans have this general belief, however it's not universally recognised and is not really an established dogma of Wicca.

I do believe souls choose when they rebirth, and what they do during their time as spirits. Usually they either look over their loved ones or become a guide.

However I've never read the Wiccan Bible, and I don't believe in a "winterland".

Does Wicca even have any established Dogma?

Depends on the type of Wiccan. For me, I follow the Wiccan rede. But as an eclectic, that's about all the dogma I need or want in my life.

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Does Wicca even have any established Dogma?

usually it's considered ideas such as the Wiccan Rede, and the duality of male/female deity.

It's not so much dogmas as accepted general practice. As Salemwitchchild says there is usually no dogma.

There are of couse pagans who try to create a kind of fundamentalist requirements for paganism and Wicca. But they are such a minority that most ignore them.

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usually it's considered ideas such as the Wiccan Rede, and the duality of male/female deity.

It's not so much dogmas as accepted general practice. As Salemwitchchild says there is usually no dogma.

There are of couse pagans who try to create a kind of fundamentalist requirements for paganism and Wicca. But they are such a minority that most ignore them.

I would have to add that there are certain "pagan" religions that do have requirements in regards to practice or initiation. It's not all eclectic, even though the term "pagan" in the pagan community is often used interchangeably (and erroneously) with eclectic neopagan practices and paradigms largely influenced by Wicca and the New Age movement. It's one of the reasons I don't like calling myself "pagan".

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I would have to add that there are certain "pagan" religions that do have requirements in regards to practice or initiation. It's not all eclectic, even though the term "pagan" in the pagan community is often used interchangeably (and erroneously) with eclectic neopagan practices and paradigms largely influenced by Wicca and the New Age movement. It's one of the reasons I don't like calling myself "pagan".

How about Helio Pagan? Then people's curiosity would get the best of them and they would ask you what the heck a Helio Pagan was and you could get more chances to talk about your belief system :)

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How about Helio Pagan? Then people's curiosity would get the best of them and they would ask you what the heck a Helio Pagan was and you could get more chances to talk about your belief system :)

I prefer just calling myself an Hellenic Reconstructionist. It serves the same purpose. I can start with a cleaner slate, as it were, instead of spending a lot of time battling assumptions about what a "pagan" is or does.

I just find it interesting (and frustrating) that a great many in the pagan community will say things like "there are eight pagan holidays", "Samhain is the pagan new year", "pagans don't practice animal sacrifice", "pagans have no problem with witchcraft", etc.; while at the same time defining a pagan as anyone that doesn't follow one of the Abrahamic religions. The language and terminology used as a default method of communication in the pagan community and at numerous pagan gatherings doesn't match the definition, and isn't really inclusive.

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I prefer just calling myself an Hellenic Reconstructionist. It serves the same purpose. I can start with a cleaner slate, as it were, instead of spending a lot of time battling assumptions about what a "pagan" is or does.

I just find it interesting (and frustrating) that a great many in the pagan community will say things like "there are eight pagan holidays", "Samhain is the pagan new year", "pagans don't practice animal sacrifice", "pagans have no problem with witchcraft", etc.; while at the same time defining a pagan as anyone that doesn't follow one of the Abrahamic religions. The language and terminology used as a default method of communication in the pagan community and at numerous pagan gatherings doesn't match the definition, and isn't really inclusive.

There's a bingo Leo! I think that's why we find so many "secuutus singuli" within the many paths of Paganism. The "single follower" is free to practice their rites and so forth as they see fit and best suits them. I've only marginally associated with other "discessio paganus" such as Wicca, but I've never seen so much descent and variations as in my own realm of Nordic Pantheonism and especially runic divination due to this. The many, many "Pagan Paths", or more formal "direction", is indeed arduous and why I think there are so few formalized congregations.

Where I see one distinction in the numerous pagan paths is freedom. Since there is no set dogma and/or doctrine the individual can pretty much choose what vibrates best within their core essence...within the one guideline of "Do that which is Right!" ("Do as you will as long as no harm befall another", etc) I mean I know one family that practices the "absolute given" there are 365 'holidays' within the annual cycle and yet another fellow that claims only the equinoxes and solstices are worthy of recognition and both claim "due to traditions".

Another distinction is the types of people involved in traditional movements and those not so much so. Some folks simply have to have peer approval and personal recognition for their efforts, or even, the sense of being "right" in order to define Self. Others, who I think rank among the majority of "pagans", could care less what other people think and are secure enough in their Self identity to simply do their own thing.

I hear you loud and clear about having to spend the time "battling assumptions" and is also one of the reasons why I choose the term "Vitki" since no one has ever heard of it. If they have, well that saves a whole lot of conversation time focusing on subject matter rather than definitions! If they haven't, like you say, "clean slate"!

"To each their own be true, to all else be in Truth!" - I saw that above the door of one of the fellowship halls built by one of gilders where I use to go to moots. It was in that very hall where 3 factions of the gild split and went their separate ways and now, nearly 20 years later are still battling each other over whose interpretation of the old runic ways is more correct. Interesting, eh?

Blessings of Peace,

Edited by Atwater Vitki

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The word "Bible" sounds like some kind of "spiritual authority". Even though my knowledge of the Wiccan Faith is very slim, I was made to understand that our sisters and brother of the Wiccan Faith did not have a "Bible" nor any thing that could be called a "sacred book". I have always admired them for that freedom.

Hermano Luis

Edited by emalpaiz

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The word "Bible" sounds like some kind of "spiritual authority". Even though my knowledge of the Wiccan Faith is very slim, I was made to understand that our sisters and brother of the Wiccan Faith did not have a "Bible" nor any thing that could be called a "sacred book". I have always admired them for that freedom.

Hermano Luis

There is the book of shadows that each coven/witch has.

But I'm sad to report that Literalism and Fundamentalism and fights over the word 'Wiccan' are quite prevalent in 2013 in the pagan community.

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There is the book of shadows that each coven/witch has.

But I'm sad to report that Literalism and Fundamentalism and fights over the word 'Wiccan' are quite prevalent in 2013 in the pagan community.

my understanding is that a book of shadows is a private journal owned by the maker,therefore not a bible in that sense.

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I just googled The Book of Shadows, checked wiki, and went to several sources selling the book.... it seems (to me) that it's accepted by it's users as a practical guide to the practice of their beliefs.... just because it doesn't have the words "WICCAN BIBLE" printed on the cover, doesn't mean it isn't used as such.

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This is a bit off-topic, but I will ask it anyway, as we are talking about Pagans.

Is there a difference between Pagan and Heathen?

Is one/either of these terms considered a pejorative (by those who practice same)?

Are they both "religions"?

Edited by Bro. Hex

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A phone call seems to put a bit of clarity on the "Book of Shadows", for me anyway.

One of my Wiccan friends said the "The Gardnerarian Book of Shadows" is held by many modern Wicca as the "guide book" for their basic set of beliefs and practices. Each witch or warlock would also have a "My" Shadows (not necessarily named or titled) book that they are responsible for putting in their personal versions of spells, reading formulas and insights about the craft.

This is the same light as within my circle in the "Galdor's Book" (The "Calling" or "Read"). Runic followers may have several resources for traditional "Rune Works", but then we each have our own journals for keeping our scrying formularies, particularly insightful readings, rune formulas and so forth. The whole thing, as I've known it, is that both Wicca and Runic followers are continually growing and enlightening their craefts, once a person is beyond the "initiate" level, all witches, warlocks, vitkis etc. (as pertains to each path) are part of the evolution of their chosen works.

Hopefully Salem or one of our other practicing Wicca can help inform us better about this. I trust my friend's summation, but he too is such a private practitioner that he may not be in touch with the majority view held by others within Wicca.

Blessings Be,

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This is a bit off-topic, but I will ask it anyway, as we are talking about Pagans.

Is there a difference between Pagan and Heathen?

Is one/either of these terms considered a pejorative (by those who practice same)?

Are they both "religions"?

Yes, most assuredly Bro Hex...."heathen" has two 'e's' and one 'n' while pagan has two 'a's' and one 'n' to start with....oh you wanted a serious answer...sorry :bleh::rofl:

I was taught "heathens" referred to early Saxony people that would practice their naturalistic beliefs among the "heathrows"...a viny, prickly plant used to separate fields and lands. Pagans on the other hand had more formalized pantheons of gods and goddesses...one worshiping "mother earth and nature" the other emulating the ways of the gods.

The early church used the terms interpolated when condemning non-Christians to the stake or noose, but technically the differences are stated above.

Blessings of Peace,

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my understanding is that a book of shadows is a private journal owned by the maker,therefore not a bible in that sense.

That was also my understanding.

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Generally, Wiccans don't have a BIBLE per se, but, as mentioned before, a Book of Shadows is used to aid in the initiation of new Wiccans, holding all they need to know in terms of basics. How to raise energy, how to perform rites, how to draw certain symbols. Basically, a how-to book for the newly initiated. A personal Book of Shadows is a individual journal of your personal journey, which would presumably be used in teaching your children of the craft. My wife had three BoS's, her's, her mother's, and her grandmother's. A flood took away the older two books, but her's and my own still exist, so we're working on a third to teach our son.

Of course, I myself am a sort of Wiccan-meets-Druid in terms of beliefs and practice, so that's going to influence how we teach our son, but my wife, Wiccan through and through, doesn't seem to mind.

Some call the Book of Shadows to be taught from a "Grimoire" rather than a Book of Shadows, mostly in an attempt to seperate it from the personal journal Book of Shadows.

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Yes, most assuredly Bro Hex...."heathen" has two 'e's' and one 'n' while pagan has two 'a's' and one 'n' to start with....oh you wanted a serious answer...sorry :bleh::rofl:

I was taught "heathens" referred to early Saxony people that would practice their naturalistic beliefs among the "heathrows"...a viny, prickly plant used to separate fields and lands. Pagans on the other hand had more formalized pantheons of gods and goddesses...one worshiping "mother earth and nature" the other emulating the ways of the gods.

The early church used the terms interpolated when condemning non-Christians to the stake or noose, but technically the differences are stated above.

Blessings of Peace,

Your explanation is interesting. In Spanish we do not have a word for Heathen. We only use the word Pagan (pagano), and it is used for everyone who is not a Christian, so accordingly I would be a Pagan.

Edited by emalpaiz

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Your explanation is interesting. In Spanish we do not have a word for Heathen. We only use the word Pagan (pagano), and it is used for everyone who is not a Christian, so accordingly I would be a Pagan.

As I mentioned Hermano, that is what I was taught within the first US Rune-Gild and which the leader ("Yrmin-Drighten") was a college etymology professor.

I have to admit at the same time, that since 2001, when I left my post and title within that very gild, I've learned quite a bit about our Yrmin and have also found some of his views to be rather...hmm...shall I just say..."non-mainstream academic" regarding such things as our ancient beliefs.

As well, when I was researching the KJV, I ran across references to notes taken at the Hampton Court proceedings (1601, convened by King James) that both terms, heathen and pagan, were used by members of the council, and other monikers, to cite the many types of "Non-Christians".

It is my belief that Hampton Court was used to not only define the "Bishop's Bible" in an accurate translation to English, but to also define the canon and other doctrines of the medieval church. When one looks into the (many changes) that occurred within Christendom between 1500 and 1650, especially the Lutheran and Anglican church, it's quite obvious that the many councils and the new translation of the KJV affected far more than just the wording of the Bible..

But I do believe the Yrmin-Drighten's analysis regarding words and the origins of same. After all it was his chosen profession and primary skill.

Blessings of Peace,

(words in parens above are links)

Edited by Atwater Vitki

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