Man: Good, Evil, Or Undecided?


Man: Good, Evil, or Undecided?  

12 members have voted

  1. 1. Is man naturally inclined to good or evil?

    • Man is naturally inclined to be good
      5
    • Man is naturally inclined to be evil
      2
    • Individuals are generally inclined to be good but ,as a race, humanity (or society) is inclined to evil
      0
    • Individuals are generally inclined to be evil but ,as a race, humanity (or society) is inclined to good
      1
    • Everybody's different, man...people are just people y'know
      5
    • Good and Evil do not exist independently from the mind, thus there is only what is beneficial or detrimental to the individual (or group)
      2
    • All of creation (not just man) is broken and in constant need of divine grace to elevate itself from its mean and lowly existence
      2
    • This is the best of all possible worlds and men, as they are, are the best of all possible men
      0
    • It is what it is. Don't look for the universe to make sense, for there is no sense to be made. Just atoms and molecules doing what they do
      0
    • God is all. Men are manifestations of God and represent the eternal light that is God. God encompasses all existence so it is inaccurate to speak of God as either good or evil for God is both and more, so it is with man. There is no good/evil only God
      3


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No........... If your referring to Christ, he was not beaten and crucified so that we could be forgiven, repentance is the only criteria required for forgiveness. Justice is a separate matter though, it requires punishment. If such was not the case, God could not be Just or righteous. God is too good not to punish sin, God would be a sinner if He didn't punish sin.

So God cannot forgive anything or anyone. I think you just made my point.....the Christian God does not know what forgiveness is as I have stated many times.

So, God's only purpose is to ferret out offenses and forgive them?

No Bro he doesn't forgive anything. According to Dan something or someone has to suffer and die and atone for every jot and iota. What else could you ever expect from a loving God.

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Your God then requires extraction or extortion and knows not forgiveness. True Forgiveness is non-conditional, once conditions are stipulated it becomes forms of extraction and extortion. Fear places such conditions upon the recipient. Agape Love bears all, endures all and never fails. There is never anything to forgive in the first place, because Truth cannot be infracted against and remains unscathed.

So, you seem to be saying that other religions have a distorted view of forgiveness. My understanding of Judaism is that a person must go to the person he/she has harmed and ask forgivness before they are entitled to be forgiven. In Christianity Jesus tought in Mark 11:25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.

Islam teaches, that the asking for divine forgiveness via repentance is important. In the case of human forgiveness, it is important to both forgive, and to be forgiven. In Hinduism asking forgiveness and performing atonement is part of the practice. Jainism asks forgiveness from all creatures from humans down to plants. I think maybe it is your view of forgiveness that is out of line with the norm. It seems to me that asking for forgiveness must be the precursor to being forgiven, for, if you do not ask for forgiveness you do not desire to be forgiven. BTW John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Is the perfect descripyion of Agape love. I always like to include verse 17 whenever quoting 3:16.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

So, God's only purpose is to ferret out offenses and forgive them?

ROFLOL God has no need to "ferret" out offenses. Satan (the accuser of the brethren) does that. Forgiveness is not God's only purpose, although only he can forgive wrongs commited against him. I could go into other things God does but in no way could I give you an exhaustive list of what God does, and even if I could none of them may reveal the ultimate "purpose" of God.

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So, you seem to be saying that other religions have a distorted view of forgiveness. My understanding of Judaism is that a person must go to the person he/she has harmed and ask forgivness before they are entitled to be forgiven. In Christianity Jesus tought in Mark 11:25 And when ye stand praying, forgive, if ye have ought against any: that your Father also which is in heaven may forgive you your trespasses.

Islam teaches, that the asking for divine forgiveness via repentance is important. In the case of human forgiveness, it is important to both forgive, and to be forgiven. In Hinduism asking forgiveness and performing atonement is part of the practice. Jainism asks forgiveness from all creatures from humans down to plants. I think maybe it is your view of forgiveness that is out of line with the norm. It seems to me that asking for forgiveness must be the precursor to being forgiven, for, if you do not ask for forgiveness you do not desire to be forgiven. BTW John 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

Is the perfect descripyion of Agape love. I always like to include verse 17 whenever quoting 3:16.

17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

No 1 Corinthians 13 is the best description of Perfect Love. I don't think having to kill your own innocent son to appease yourself for offenses others committed because you're not big enough to forgive them is an act of love whatsoever.

The guilty offender asks for forgiveness to relieve their guilt that is not the same as "forgiveness". Forgiveness originates from the One offended. "Forgiveness" and the "feeling of being forgiven" are two different things and you seem to have them confused.

A love that bears all, endures all and never fails and accepts others unconditionally cognizant of the inherent shortcomings designed within those beings needs not be asked for forgiveness because there is nothing to forgive.

Example: I work with a person who is in a position of leadership and is a complete moronic hothead at times because he doesn't stop to think before he answers a question and is multitasking. Quite often he later has to apologize and ask for forgiveness for his actions from others. Now pay close attention. I have forgiven him after a brief few minutes of thinking of what an arse he was after one of his episodes. No need for him to even ask me he has been forgiven, many times I don't even get offended by the ignorance of others and there is nothing to forgive in my mind. Love forgives without repentance or in some cases even remorse. Sometimes folks don't even know they have offended others. That is forgiveness and is the healthiest and best response from the person being offended. The act of seeking Forgiveness is another Entity altogether and isn't what the discussion is about.

Edited by Fawzo
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Posts #77-83...I want you all to know, through this exchange above, that you have shown me something in a very real sense that I have only intellectually pondered before....Thank You! It is very clear, crystal clear, that there is a very strong divide between those that believe the messages of the ancient prophets and those that simply adhere to the doctrines of whatever religion they follow.

Fawzo, the example you gave of the fellow you work with and forgiveness....I hope that is understood by others how I'm pretty sure you meant it. It explains the meaning of forgiveness as well as any other true definition I have ever heard or read. And ya know? The warning was given long ago about those that called on the Son's name.

Honestly, I believe more was said in your one sentence.... "Love (God?) forgives without repentance or in some cases even remorse."....than in the total of the other half dozen posts. Yep, there's a lot of "evil" in mankind and the world, but if just a few get it about what that one sentence means...well Fawzo, I do believe ya ought to be up for Sainthood!!

Blessings of Peace,

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Posts #77-83...I want you all to know, through this exchange above, that you have shown me something in a very real sense that I have only intellectually pondered before....Thank You! It is very clear, crystal clear, that there is a very strong divide between those that believe the messages of the ancient prophets and those that simply adhere to the doctrines of whatever religion they follow.

Fawzo, the example you gave of the fellow you work with and forgiveness....I hope that is understood by others how I'm pretty sure you meant it. It explains the meaning of forgiveness as well as any other true definition I have ever heard or read. And ya know? The warning was given long ago about those that called on the Son's name.

Honestly, I believe more was said in your one sentence.... "Love (God?) forgives without repentance or in some cases even remorse."....than in the total of the other half dozen posts. Yep, there's a lot of "evil" in mankind and the world, but if just a few get it about what that one sentence means...well Fawzo, I do believe ya ought to be up for Sainthood!!

Blessings of Peace,

The last time I looked -- a ULC sainthood was selling for about $10. Perhaps you meant to be more lavish with your praise? :D

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Posts #77-83...I want you all to know, through this exchange above, that you have shown me something in a very real sense that I have only intellectually pondered before....Thank You! It is very clear, crystal clear, that there is a very strong divide between those that believe the messages of the ancient prophets and those that simply adhere to the doctrines of whatever religion they follow.

Fawzo, the example you gave of the fellow you work with and forgiveness....I hope that is understood by others how I'm pretty sure you meant it. It explains the meaning of forgiveness as well as any other true definition I have ever heard or read. And ya know? The warning was given long ago about those that called on the Son's name.

Honestly, I believe more was said in your one sentence.... "Love (God?) forgives without repentance or in some cases even remorse."....than in the total of the other half dozen posts. Yep, there's a lot of "evil" in mankind and the world, but if just a few get it about what that one sentence means...well Fawzo, I do believe ya ought to be up for Sainthood!!

Blessings of Peace,

The last time I looked -- a ULC sainthood was selling for about $10. Perhaps you meant to be more lavish with your praise? :D

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A love that bears all, endures all and never fails and accepts others unconditionally cognizant of the inherent shortcomings designed within those beings needs not be asked for forgiveness because there is nothing to forgive.

So either you haven't quite reached that state of perfect love or... you are flip flopping again.

Example: I work with a person who is in a position of leadership and is a complete moronic hothead at times because he doesn't stop to think before he answers a question and is multitasking. Quite often he later has to apologize and ask for forgiveness for his actions from others. Now pay close attention. I have forgiven him after a brief few minutes of thinking of what an arse he was after one of his episodes. No need for him to even ask me he has been forgiven, many times I don't even get offended by the ignorance of others and there is nothing to forgive in my mind. Love forgives without repentance or in some cases even remorse. Sometimes folks don't even know they have offended others. That is forgiveness and is the healthiest and best response from the person being offended. The act of seeking Forgiveness is another Entity altogether and isn't what the discussion is about.

But here you assume that God has the same reasons to forgive that you do. That is not the case! Human forgiveness makes you feel better about being offended. Whether by relieving your anger or by releasing a percieved debt. When you forgive the complete moronic hothead after that brief moment, who benifits? Certainly not him because at this point he does not know he has been forgiven. You are the beneficiary, because you release the negative feelings the offence may have caused. Divine forgiveness is not about making God feel better about the offense. Divine forgiveness is for the person who commited the offense to be freed from the negative feelings of commiting the offense. IMO God has no need to feel better about the offence but rather wants the person commiting the offence to be freed from whatever is causing them to commit the offense. As far as I can tell you have completly missed the point of Gods forgiveness.

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So either you haven't quite reached that state of perfect love or... you are flip flopping again.

I never have claimed that I have reached that state of perfection as of yet, but I have experienced it on multiple occasions and have no doubt of its existence and that it is the nature of God as I experience him/she/it.

But here you assume that God has the same reasons to forgive that you do. That is not the case! Human forgiveness makes you feel better about being offended. Whether by relieving your anger or by releasing a percieved debt. When you forgive the complete moronic hothead after that brief moment, who benifits? Certainly not him because at this point he does not know he has been forgiven. You are the beneficiary, because you release the negative feelings the offence may have caused. Divine forgiveness is not about making God feel better about the offense. Divine forgiveness is for the person who commited the offense to be freed from the negative feelings of commiting the offense. IMO God has no need to feel better about the offence but rather wants the person commiting the offence to be freed from whatever is causing them to commit the offense. As far as I can tell you have completly missed the point of Gods forgiveness.

You seem to not see that with selfless love and complete awareness there isn't any offense to forgive to make one feel better about them self. Perfect Love doesn't place conditions or expectations on its love so it is given freely. The God I know has no need to forgive you since there is no action that can offend or assault truth. Truth and Love remain pure and unscathed by whatever men can think or do.

God doesn't have to have any blood sacrifice before he can forgive. Jesus did not die on the cross before God could be prepared to forgive mankind. In total awareness God is cognizant of the conditions and reasons of man's behavior since he created them and sets the parameters under which they are allowed to happen. If God did not create them then they are non-existent and merely the illusions of some lost portion of consciousness which is having a bad dream and merely needs to reawaken.

Jesus did not have to suffer and die on the Cross before God could forgive anyone, yet it does make a very good focal point for individuals to become aware that they are forgiven. Jesus used simple ritualistic Baptism to get the same point across to people. A symbolic cleansing in running water and then told them "your sins be forgiven, go and sin no more" nothing had to die and suffer and no guilt was imparted to the other party in the process.

The Course in Miracles teaches that "forgiveness" is the tool the Holy Spirit uses to help us awaken and regain the "right-use" of our minds. As long as there is any form of unforgiveness in one's mind, than that mind cannot experience the Oneness that is God and our true selves.

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The last time I looked -- a ULC sainthood was selling for about $10. Perhaps you meant to be more lavish with your praise? :D

(In my very best Zoidberg voice:) A WHOLE Hamilton? Two Lincolns or ten Washingtons? A hundred shiny Eisenhowers? A thousand copper Lincolns, two hundred bright Jeffersons, forty glimmering Georges?.........more lavish?......my mind wanders at the wonder!! :rofl:

But on a serious ♪....

The argument always comes around to "we can not grasp the mind of "God"....unless of course we're condemning mankind and telling others what to do or how to act. Then it seems it's open range on every target of every type concerning our human nature....proof is just a short distance above....

Blessings Be,

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You seem to not see that with selfless love and complete awareness there isn't any offense to forgive to make one feel better about them self. Perfect Love doesn't place conditions or expectations on its love so it is given freely. The God I know has no need to forgive you since there is no action that can offend or assault truth. Truth and Love remain pure and unscathed by whatever men can think or do.

I understand fully what you are saying, I simply disagree. If your god sees a man commit a murder and says, in his best Mel Brooks voice," Murder schmurder what murder ... it's nothing ... go ahead ... what's to forgive ... nothing ... don't worry about it" I say that's a god I don't want anything to do with. It is quite clear that your god is not the same god as my God.

The Course in Miracles teaches that "forgiveness" is the tool the Holy Spirit uses to help us awaken and regain the "right-use" of our minds. As long as there is any form of unforgiveness in one's mind, than that mind cannot experience the Oneness that is God and our true selves.

I think here is the crux of the whole thing. You base your understanding of your god on the automatic writings of a person, in the 1960's who, in my opinion, was channeling spirits. This practice has it's roots in the occult. Although draped in Christian terminology the work is clearly antichrist. Reconciliation of the writings of an apparent 20th century medium and the writings of first century Christians is not possible. Although A Course in Miracles claims to clarify or in some cases supercede the teachings of Christianity it's short history and roots in channeling make it, at least for most Christians, a work whos only quality is that it is a prime example of New Age, Antichrist propaganda.

Edited by Pastor Dave
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I understand fully what you are saying, I simply disagree. If your god sees a man commit a murder and says, in his best Mel Brooks voice," Murder schmurder what murder ... it's nothing ... go ahead ... what's to forgive ... nothing ... don't worry about it" I say that's a god I don't want anything to do with. It is quite clear that your god is not the same god as my God.

Methinks your God would be considered much worse to watch millions of gruesome Murders, Rapes and Torture and do nothing about it. Mine is merely watching a play or movie where the participants aren't harmed Spiritually whatsoever. The dream creations of His Son are pretty Nightmarish at times but His Son is not harmed in any manner. The Son will wake up one day and realize he is dreaming and dad was their the whole time waiting for that moment. His dream of separation and Hell was nothing more than that a Dream.

My God is watching a play while he eats popcorn, yours seems to enjoy actual bloodshed and hell fire while he sits back and relaxes and eats his. I'll get you Dr. Phil's phone number.

I think here is the crux of the whole thing. You base your understanding of your god on the automatic writings of a person, in the 1960's who, in my opinion, was channeling spirits. This practice has it's roots in the occult. Although draped in Christian terminology the work is clearly antichrist. Reconciliation of the writings of an apparent 20th century medium and the writings of first century Christians is not possible. Although A Course in Miracles claims to clarify or in some cases supercede the teachings of Christianity it's short history and roots in channeling make it, at least for most Christians, a work whos only quality is that it is a prime example of New Age, Antichrist propaganda.

No I am basing my perceptions of God on actual firsthand experiences. The teachings of a Course in Miracles are merely the closest teachings I have found which resonate with those experiences. So you are against folks who are inspired by Spirits to write Holy Books.....very interesting. ;)

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Methinks your God would be considered much worse to watch millions of gruesome Murders, Rapes and Torture and do nothing about it. Mine is merely watching a play or movie where the participants aren't harmed Spiritually whatsoever.

The OT God instructed us to kill murderers and rapist, so its unfair to claim He does nothing about it when he clearly condemns such things. For now, God gave us the freedom to govern ourselves, so He expects us to do our own laundry. God stepped-up many times in the OT when his anger reached a boiling point, and God will pour out his wrath in the future. The biblical God also warns of the second death, and intends to terminate many sinners spiritually. So God is not a bystander watching a movie, he's making a list and checking it twice and is gonna find out who's naughty and nice.

Your god doesn't distinguish between good or bad, so he cannot be righteous or administer justice. He loves and forgives unconditionally, so your god will not punish murderers or rapist physically or spiritually. In fact, by accepting everyone unconditionally, I'd submit that your god endorses and promotes murder, rape, torture, and any other evil thing a person can conjure-up. That's not perfect love, giving everyone an unconditional free stamp of approval is the mark of an uncaring god who has never demonstrated any kind of love. So while the biblical God corrects those he loves, your god is all-accepting and corrects nothing. Can your utopia exist where harmful behavior is endorsed?

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The OT God instructed us to kill murderers and rapist, so its unfair to claim He does nothing about it when he clearly condemns such things. For now, God gave us the freedom to govern ourselves, so He expects us to do our own laundry. God stepped-up many times in the OT when his anger reached a boiling point, and God will pour out his wrath in the future. The biblical God also warns of the second death, and intends to terminate many sinners spiritually. So God is not a bystander watching a movie, he's making a list and checking it twice and is gonna find out who's naughty and nice.

Your god doesn't distinguish between good or bad, so he cannot be righteous or administer justice. He loves and forgives unconditionally, so your god will not punish murderers or rapist physically or spiritually. In fact, by accepting everyone unconditionally, I'd submit that your god endorses and promotes murder, rape, torture, and any other evil thing a person can conjure-up. That's not perfect love, giving everyone an unconditional free stamp of approval is the mark of an uncaring god who has never demonstrated any kind of love. So while the biblical God corrects those he loves, your god is all-accepting and corrects nothing. Can your utopia exist where harmful behavior is endorsed?

The murderer is just as much God as the doctor who gives the lethal injection.

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The murderer is just as much God as the doctor who gives the lethal injection.

Not in my book :read:

An unrepentant murderer is dead meat, both physically and spiritually. :skull:

There was an angel :devil: who wanted to be God too, and he'll soon be swimming in a Lake of Fire (according to my book) :)

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Not in my book :read:

An unrepentant murderer is dead meat, both physically and spiritually. :skull:

There was an angel :devil: who wanted to be God too, and he'll soon be swimming in a Lake of Fire (according to my book) :)

where is that in your book again?
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Tsk tsk tsk, Forgiving sins is what Tiggers (and the Christian God) do best!

I would argue that yes the God that Yeshua served knew what true forgiveness was, but the Orthodox Christian Demiurge God associated with the Old Testament who must have every jot and title paid for with by a bloody sacrifice has never forgiven anyone in His life. It seems impossible for the two to be the same.

In the video Jesus claims that the woman's Love and Faith Saved her. It wasn't her faith in the Bloody Sacrifice of Jesus for that had not happened as of yet. Merely her love and faith in God.

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where is that in your book again?

"But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death" (Revelation 21:8)

"For thou (Satan) hast said in your heart, I will ascend into heaven. ... I will be like the Most High'" (Isaiah 14:13-14)

"Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels" (Matthew 25:41)

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