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Perhaps. I believe my son has already done that though....

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QWAJB40K_-Q

I enjoyed that Joe thanks. Did he have any record deals he seemed pretty good?

So let me get this right, for a believer to tell atheists that their vessels are empty is OK but for an atheist to tell a believer that his vessel is full is not,

Yes, no bias at all....... :rolleyes:

I would think the most important part of a vessel is the emptiness within. If it is full one can't pour anything new into it :)

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Wert thou......?

I never understood this need that some have for using old English, as if it then becomes more truthful and has a stamp of authority.

The author of that quotation, Bahá’u’lláh, born in 1817, died in 1892 at the age of 74.

English was not likely to have been his primary language (born in Tehran, Iran and died in Palestine).

It is quite possible that "Wert thou" was typical of the only variety of spoken English with which the author (Bahá’u’lláh) was familiar.

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So let me get this right, for a believer to tell atheists that their vessels are empty is OK but for an atheist to tell a believer that his vessel is full is not,

Yes, no bias at all....... :rolleyes:

No (and you know quite well what your response implied), that is not true. You may think you are a master of double-speak, but they are obvious to all. Therein lies the transgression.

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Yes I am all empty and you are full of it.

Hyper, please Don`t twist my words, I never said that or implied that about you-- nor do I think that of you. I respect your belief system--if you read my post I said

`--you see Hyper the seed of faith is in each human soul, but the soil that germinates it is different in each one of us--for many it is religion for others it is something else. Unless we have faith we are simply empty vessels. You have as well, you may just call it something else,`--this is what I said.

peace,

S

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I look to the stars and see God,

I look to the earth and see God,

I look to the waters and see God,

I look to the wolves, the eagles and see God,

I look to the words and see God,

I look to the east and see God,

I look to the west and see God,

Look and see God

Nice observations. It made me think of Psalm 139. :)

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My understanding from a member of Baha'i of my acquaintance is that, in his words, "Many of the original Writings of Bahá'í and 'Abdu'l-Bahá are written in very exalted and poetic Persian and Arabic and therefore a similar flavour should be attempted (emphasis added) in the language into which it is translated.... n translating the Tablets of Bahá'u'lláh into English the [translator] has created a very beautiful and poetic style in English using many words which might be considered archaic and are reminiscent of the English used by the translators of the King James Version of the Bible. "

Thanks, Peter. I should have read your post before posting myself.

I was only able to offer conjecture, whereas you have provided something more substantial.

Edited by Bro. Hex

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While archaic language may be flowery and overly ornate, it also serves another purpose - it forces the reader to slow down, even if only slightly, to take in the words. When one is reading for devotional purposes, it is a good thing to slow down and consider what one is reading. It serves little purpose to read for enlightenment if one does not think about what is being read. Seeing words is not the same as reading, and certainly not reading to understand.

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Hyper, please Don`t twist my words, I never said that or implied that about you-- nor do I think that of you. I respect your belief system--if you read my post I said

`--you see Hyper the seed of faith is in each human soul, but the soil that germinates it is different in each one of us--for many it is religion for others it is something else. Unless we have faith we are simply empty vessels. You have as well, you may just call it something else,`--this is what I said.

Yes, that is what you said.

I have no faith and you wrote: "Unless we have faith we are simply empty vessels."

Thus, by applying simple logic, that implies that you must conclude I am an empty vessel.

So this appears to me simply pulpit preaching material:

"Have faith otherwise you are empty".

Perhaps a nice sign to hold up for a person of faith in the middle of Main street but not a very rational argument in my opinion.

I could turn it upside down but then perhaps the moderators will "shame" me again:

"If you are full of all the imaginations of God and spirituality there is no room anymore for rational thought."

Sounds warm, caring and loving to you?

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Yes, that is what you said.

I have no faith and you wrote: "Unless we have faith we are simply empty vessels."

Thus, by applying simple logic, that implies that you must conclude I am an empty vessel.

So this appears to me simply pulpit preaching material:

"Have faith otherwise you are empty".

Perhaps a nice sign to hold up for a person of faith in the middle of Main street but not a very rational argument in my opinion.

I could turn it upside down but then perhaps the moderators will "shame" me again:

"If you are full of all the imaginations of God and spirituality there is no room anymore for rational thought."

Sounds warm, caring and loving to you?

I am sorry that this is the way you understood it to be--that is was not my intention at all.And I don`t equate faith with religion but `spirituality` I have no other word for it, maybe you do. Man--always has faith, dosn`t mean it has to be ``God``.Why cannot there be any room for rational thought beside ``God``--or whatever? I don`t think it has to be neither or --it can be both--actually is. No? If one loves nature, appreciates beauty, cares for a loved one, has an awe for the birth of their child, --what is that. What is love , pain, joy, sadness--where does that come from?--from emptiness?

peace,

S

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I think we are getting stuck on a few words. "Faith" for instance. There are other ways to express this. "Quiet knowing" for instance, or "awareness." Or a different nuance such as "awe" -- which can be experienced by contemplating a star filled sky -- or the laws of physics -- or a flower.

"Empty" is another troubling word. In Daoism, becoming "empty" is a goal. Very similar to the Buddhist idea of "enlightenment." Daoists regard being empty as a good thing. It signifies being in harmony with the "all" which is the Dao. Examples of being empty in Daoism include the empty space (hub) at the center of a wheel -- which is what makes the wheel useful -- and the empty space in a house -- which makes it liveable.

I would like to mention that both Daoism and Buddhism are philosophic systems of thought which are nontheistic. It is possible to have "spiritual" philosophy and goals that have nothing to do with God or gods.

Edited by Jonathan H. B. Lobl

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I would like to mention that both Daoism and Buddhism are philosophic systems of thought which are nontheistic. It is possible to have "spiritual" philosophy and goals that have nothing to do with God or gods.

Daoism yes, however I disagree on Buddhism here as there are (poly)theistic elements in some of the branches.

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In many contemplative traditions both theistic and nontheistic, "emptiness" is a state of profound awareness.

Hermano Luis

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Daoism yes, however I disagree on Buddhism here as there are (poly)theistic elements in some of the branches.

The theistic elements in Buddhism are only symbolism. These images are not worshiped.

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