Were Moses And Joshua Heros Or War Criminals?


Fawzo
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This is the fundamental difference between the Old and the New Testament--Christianity and Judaism. The Old Testaments portrayal is an angry, vengeful, hateful, wrathful, jealous, warlike God--whereas the New Testament God is loving, compassionate, forgiving, merciful......

You really, really believe that??

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It has been a great honor being named a compassionate mentor. Not wishing to sully that designation I have been silent, for the most part, while G-d has been vilified, Jewish scripture has been vilified, Jews have been vilified and more. Well, I guess I'm going to have return my secret decoder ring and mentor badge. If I, who have stood up in defense of other people, defense of their spiritual paths, defense of their rights no matter their sex, gender identification, sexual orientation, skin color or politics, will not stand up for myself, for my people, my scripture and my traditions, then I do not have the right to call myself or to present myself as a rabbi.

Edited by RabbiO
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Dan get your facts straight, I'm sure I can dig up more proof if you like:

I responded to the question; "So then Dan it is still morally fine with God if we kill off whole nations of people who don't believe" Your examples reverted back to old covenant law, all of which applied to the Israelites. God had a divine purpose to be especially strict by forbidding idolatry. Even then, only a remnant of his people remained to usher in Messiah. I agree, God brought the hammer down when his people turned to other gods. But my answer was 'No' because we are under the new covenant now.

Yea sure Dan that justifies picking up infants and smashing there brains out against rocks. Dan I'm actually starting to wonder if you even read the Bible lol

I not only read it, I understand it.. I wasn't justifying smashing children's heads against rocks, and neither was God. God did not order it, so he doesn't need to justify anything. That was my point.

The Hebrews sacrificed their own kids as well Dan. Jepthah and his daughter was only one example. Dan that separation from the tree of life was created by God denying Adam and Eve access to it.

I completely disagree with your interpretation of Judges 11, Jephthah's daughter was not sacrificed but remained celibate the rest of her life "he had vowed:and she knew no man" (verse 39). Yes, A&E died to eternal life when they sinned. Sin separates us from God, its his rules, but our choice. If you want access to the Tree of Life, just don't sin............ Its sooooo simple :)

This is the fundamental difference between the Old and the New Testament--Christianity and Judaism. The Old Testaments portrayal is an angry, vengeful, hateful, wrathful, jealous, warlike God--whereas the New Testament God is loving, compassionate, forgiving, merciful.

Its all the same God to me. Jesus came as the sacrificial lamb and did not render judgement in the sense of condemnation, but Revelation has him returning a second time in judgement, and that's when we'll see that OT personally at full throttle.

As for any killing, any war, the aggressors--they are all considered murderers to my thinking-- no matter who they are.

So you think General Patton was a murderer for going after Adolf?

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It is my belief in a modern court of law that the actions of Moses and Joshua would have them sitting in a courtroom being tried and convicted of war crimes.

Well, obviousy they are not war criminals in the legal sense according to the doctrine of Nulla crimen sine lege (No crime without a law). There was no recognized international law proscribing and punishing "war crimes". Given that they were the leaders of a theocracy and were "on a mission from God", led victorious campaigns against a better equipped enemy, and protected their peope's interests; they are probably best described as heros...at least to the nation of Israel.

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It has been a great honor being named a compassionate mentor. Not wishing to sully that designation I have been silent, for the most part, while G-d has been vilified, Jewish scripture has been vilified, Jews have been vilified and more. Well, I guess I'm going to have return my secret decoder ring and mentor badge. If I, who have stood up in defense of other people, defense of their spiritual paths, defense of their rights no matter their sex, gender identification, sexual orientation, skin color or politics, will not stand up for myself, for my people, my scripture and my traditions, then I do not have the right to call myself or to present myself as a rabbi.

God, scripture, and fundamentalist have been vilified for quite some time, welcome to the club RabbiO :) Folks just don't think it was fair that the Pharaoh wasn't allowed to keep the Hebrew slaves for another 400 years. That terrible Moses freed them, and in this crowd, that makes him nearly as bad as that Lincoln dude :) And then of course there's that incident when that bully David picked on poor little Goliath! Its also difficult for some to understand why the Jews get upset every time a Palestinian missile attack showers Israel. You may be a compassionate mentor Rabbi, but why can't your fellow Jews just sit back and accept a little violence directed towards them like they did in Germany 50 years ago? :) Even now, Israel is a tad impatient with Iran, when all the Iranians are asking for is a little more time :)

Seriously, keep your secret decoder ring and mentor badge. If your faith is right and your G-d is true, than the critics have a bigger need of a compassionate Rabbi than they realize.

Patton was absolutely a killer. Murderer would depend on your legal and moral views.

I can go along with that (killer)... But I think 'murderer' would better define the one who set up the Nazi death camps.

Edited by Dan56
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It has been a great honor being named a compassionate mentor. Not wishing to sully that designation I have been silent, for the most part, while G-d has been vilified, Jewish scripture has been vilified, Jews have been vilified and more. Well, I guess I'm going to have return my secret decoder ring and mentor badge. If I, who have stood up in defense of other people, defense of their spiritual paths, defense of their rights no matter their sex, gender identification, sexual orientation, skin color or politics, will not stand up for myself, for my people, my scripture and my traditions, then I do not have the right to call myself or to present myself as a rabbi.

Think for one moment how silence and looking the other way allowed the Holocaust to occur and lets here you roar. Careful though we don't want anything to happen to our beloved Rabbi and his less then perfect health.

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I completely disagree with your interpretation of Judges 11, Jephthah's daughter was not sacrificed but remained celibate the rest of her life "he had vowed:and she knew no man" (verse 39). Yes, A&E died to eternal life when they sinned. Sin separates us from God, its his rules, but our choice. If you want access to the Tree of Life, just don't sin............ Its sooooo simple :)

And twice before Dan you have been shown clearly that your assumptions are highly unlikely. RabbiO even gave you some information from the Midrash last time you made that claim.

How likely is it that the women of the village went every year to memorialize the event if they were only lamenting the girl giving herself to the temple. That would be something to celebrate not lament and did they go every day of the year for all the young women who offered themself to the temple, of course not that idea is preposterous, they went and lamented becuase the girl was burned dead by her father.

I responded to the question; "So then Dan it is still morally fine with God if we kill off whole nations of people who don't believe" Your examples reverted back to old covenant law, all of which applied to the Israelites. God had a divine purpose to be especially strict by forbidding idolatry. Even then, only a remnant of his people remained to usher in Messiah. I agree, God brought the hammer down when his people turned to other gods. But my answer was 'No' because we are under the new covenant now.

Dan if something was morally wrong in the eyes of God then it should be morally wrong in the eyes of God now, since accoding to you he never changes, but your very words above show that he does change. One would hope God's level of sophistication highly exceds that of we humans who are evolving and becoming more sophisticated and more aware of just how morally corrupt some actions are.

I not only read it, I understand it.. I wasn't justifying smashing children's heads against rocks, and neither was God. God did not order it, so he doesn't need to justify anything. That was my point.

The action is described as Righteous, what signifies that something is Righteous is that it pleases God. The action is deemed as pleasing to God and within the parameters of his will. THAT IS THE POINT PERIOD.

Edited by Fawzo
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It has been a great honor being named a compassionate mentor. Not wishing to sully that designation I have been silent, for the most part, while G-d has been vilified, Jewish scripture has been vilified, Jews have been vilified and more. Well, I guess I'm going to have return my secret decoder ring and mentor badge. If I, who have stood up in defense of other people, defense of their spiritual paths, defense of their rights no matter their sex, gender identification, sexual orientation, skin color or politics, will not stand up for myself, for my people, my scripture and my traditions, then I do not have the right to call myself or to present myself as a rabbi.

I was wondering if you were reading the excrement thats been smeared throughout this thread.

One of my favorite quotes, and the reason I am so vocal in my disagreement with a questionable premise:

Plato- "Your silence gives consent."

Edited by Songster
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Think for one moment how silence and looking the other way allowed the Holocaust to occur and lets here you roar. Careful though we don't want anything to happen to our beloved Rabbi and his less then perfect health.

Roar? I think not. It's never been my style. Besides, remember the experience of Elijah. G-d was not in the wind, G-d was not in the earthquake nor in the fire, but after the fire in the hush of the moment - קול דממה דקה - the voice of a thin whisper. Nor is anger appropriate. Angry words tend to be said in haste and tend to be unnecessarily hurtful - ארך אפים רב־תבונה וקצר־רוח מרים אולת - one who is slow to anger has understanding, but the quick tempered only elevates foolishness. That's from Proverbs.

I wish I could address the issues with the equivalent of pithy 30 second bites, but that can't be done. I need to gather my thoughts and work my way through them. It will take some time, but I will get through them.

I think some of the positions taken are, at best, ill conceived, but it is my intent that as we go through we will still be -חברים

- chaverim - friends.

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And twice before Dan you have been shown clearly that your assumptions are highly unlikely. RabbiO even gave you some information from the Midrash last time you made that claim.

Well, I interpret it differently. Scripture is not clearly definitive here, but other scripture clearly states that God opposes sacrificing children. Since God condemns human sacrifice, it would be inconsistent to green light this execution. Plus, it would be out of character for Judges 11 to focus on the virgin aspect if that wasn't the ultimate outcome. I mean, how would all those verses proclaiming that the daughter would remain a virgin be relative if they were just going to kill her anyway? No where else do the Jews sacrifice people, a Levitical priest wouldn't do it imo. So I respectfully disagree with you and RabbiO.

Dan if something was morally wrong in the eyes of God then it should be morally wrong in the eyes of God now, since accoding to you he never changes, but your very words above show that he does change.

The covenant changed, not God. The ultimate sacrifice put us under grace, the penalties for breaking the law in the old covenant were paid and mercy was obtained. The law remains, but the curse of the law is of null-effect for Christians.

Edited by Dan56
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Shalom Rabbi Peter--

I do deeply apologize if in any way I have offended you--it was not my intention, and I respect all faiths. Whether I belive truly what I wrote in my post--yes I do.

I have studied the Old Testament, as well as the New quiet deeply. I am Christian--but that is my way, others may have an other way, so perhaps that is the reason why I am seeing the things the way I do--for me Jesus is ``the truth, the way and the life`` I do have to admit though I do with all sincerety belive that, I have my own interpretation of the Gospels. But that dosn`t detract from the eternal truth.

I would very much appreciate if you would enlighten me as to the way the New Testament is seen by teachers like yourself. Are we--or I as a Christian lost because we believe in the teachings of Jesus--is the Jewish religion the only way? I think I know your answer, but I maybe wrong. How and what do you think? I would really would like to know what you think of the New Testament--I know the Jewish view, have you anything else to add that perhaps I could consider.

I would just like to ask one more question--what is it that every religious male Jew prays for every morning--well you may not but many do for it may have faded into history--is that right? Do you think that G-D makes acceptions, has favourites? Would that be a fair G-D? If yes--why?

I am Jewish by birth, but a Christian by choice of spirit--however I accept and respect all. No one is lost if they truly believe in an eternal G-D. No--I dont`t mean a Saviour at this point. I am certainly not a Bible thumping Christian, for I believe who ever really believes in their faith fully --is fine by G-D.

Again--I have deep respect for you, for Judaism, for our people--thus I am sorry if it offends you.

Shalom--blessings of the Lord our G-D

S

Edited by sarkany
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Shalom Rabbi Peter--

I would just like to ask one more question--what is it that every religious male Jew prays for every morning--well you may not but many do for it may have faded into history--is that right?

I presume you are referring to that section of the Amidah that begins

רְצֵה ה' אֱלֹהֵֽינוּ

which deals of course with the restoration of the Temple.

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רְצֵה ה' אֱלֹהֵֽינוּ

I don't speak or read Hebrew and the translator doesn't give a translation for this... can it be expressed in English?

רְצֵה ה' אֱלֹהֵֽינוּ= The רְצֵה ה' אֱלֹהֵֽינוּ

Edited by Songster
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I don't speak or read Hebrew and the translator doesn't give a translation for this... can it be expressed in English?

רְצֵה ה' אֱלֹהֵֽינוּ= The רְצֵה ה' אֱלֹהֵֽינוּ

The beginning words of the first sentence of the 17th blessing contained in the Amidah. That first sentence in English is "Find favor, Adonai our G-d, in Your people Israel and their prayer." The underlined is that portion of the Hebrew that I provided. In the Hebrew found in prayer books the name of G-d, the tetragrammaton, is spelled out. I have abbreviated it, per custom with just "ה"

Edited by RabbiO
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Well, I interpret it differently. Scripture is not clearly definitive here, but other scripture clearly states that God opposes sacrificing children. Since God condemns human sacrifice, it would be inconsistent to green light this execution. Plus, it would be out of character for Judges 11 to focus on the virgin aspect if that wasn't the ultimate outcome. I mean, how would all those verses proclaiming that the daughter would remain a virgin be relative if they were just going to kill her anyway? No where else do the Jews sacrifice people, a Levitical priest wouldn't do it imo. So I respectfully disagree with you and RabbiO.

God certainly had no problems killing children during the flood, the first born of Egypt, the kids at Sodom and Gomorrah, the little ones Joshua slayed and the 42 rend to pieces by she bears for mocking Elisha just to name a few. Since when does God condemn human sacrifice, he loves it...remember Jesus.

'Nevertheless, anything which a man sets apart to the LORD out of all that he has, of man or animal or of the fields of his own property, shall not be sold or redeemed. Anything devoted to destruction is most holy to the LORD. 29 'No one who may have been set apart among men shall be ransomed; he shall surely be put to death.

Lev 27:28-29 (NASB77)

And they utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, ox and sheep and donkey, with the edge of the sword.

Josh 6:21 (NKJV)

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31 The Lord said to Moses, 2 “Take vengeance on the Midianites for the Israelites. After that, you will be gathered to your people. ”

3 So Moses said to the people, “Arm some of your men to go to war against the Midianites so that they may carry out the Lord’s vengeance on them................

7 They fought against Midian, as the Lord commanded Moses, and killed every man. 8 Among their victims were Evi, Rekem, Zur, Hur and Reba —the five kings of Midian. They also killed Balaam son of Beor with the sword. 9 The Israelites captured the Midianite women and children and took all the Midianite herds, flocks and goods as plunder. 10 They burned all the towns where the Midianites had settled, as well as all their camps. 11 They took all the plunder and spoils, including the people and animals, 12 and brought the captives, spoils and plunder to Moses and Eleazar the priest and the Israelite assembly .............................

13 Moses, Eleazar the priest and all the leaders of the community went to meet them outside the camp. 14 Moses was angry with the officers of the army —the commanders of thousands and commanders of hundreds—who returned from the battle.

15 “Have you allowed all the women to live?” he asked them. 16 “They were the ones who followed Balaam’s advice and enticed the Israelites to be unfaithful to the Lord in the Peor incident, so that a plague struck the Lord’s people. 17 Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man.

.......................

25 The Lord said to Moses,26 “You and Eleazar the priest and the family heads of the community are to count all the people and animals that were captured. 27 Divide the spoils equally between the soldiers who took part in the battle and the rest of the community. 28 From the soldiers who fought in the battle, set apart as tribute for the Lord one out of every five hundred, whether people, cattle, donkeys or sheep. 29 Take this tribute from their half share and give it to Eleazar the priest as the Lord’s part. 30 From the Israelites’ half, select one out of every fifty, whether people, cattle, donkeys, sheep or other animals..........................

32 The plunder remaining from the spoils that the soldiers took was 675,000 sheep, 33 72,000 cattle, 34 61,000 donkeys 35and 32,000 women who had never slept with a man.

36 The half share of those who fought in the battle was:

337,500 sheep, 37 of which the tribute for the Lord was 675;

38 36,000 cattle, of which the tribute for the Lord was 72;

39 30,500 donkeys, of which the tribute for the Lord was 61;

40 16,000 people, of whom the tribute for the Lord was 32.

41 Moses gave the tribute to Eleazar the priest as the Lord’s part, as the Lord commanded Moses.

42 The half belonging to the Israelites, which Moses set apart from that of the fighting men— 43 the community’s half—was 337,500 sheep, 44 36,000 cattle, 45 30,500 donkeys 46 and 16,000 people. 47 From the Israelites’ half, Moses selected one out of every fifty people and animals, as the Lord commanded him, and gave them to the Levites, who were responsible for the care of the Lord’s tabernacle.

Numbers 31

Thoughts?

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