maj11381

Doctor Of Philosophy In Religion From Ulc

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22 minutes ago, RevTom said:

Off the top of my head, I will cite a school I went to online- nothing to do with theological studies, but I have seen that as well, and will hunt for them. It has been a while since I looked into online degrees, but I get the spiels form various institutions all the time in my email. Cleveland Institute of Electronics is the online school I took lessons from online. They do have an extensive study program, and have one of the best reputations, but still, I found the coursework to be pretty easy, although very intensive and involved. Grace Bible College is one of the schools I have been recommended to, and they supposedly are accredited by HLC and ABHE.  Trinity College of The Bible and Wesley Seminary are others.

 

I'm not in a position to say how easy the work is.

 

To be useful, the accrediting agency must be, in turn, recognized by the U. S. Dept. of Education. Unless of course, you plan to work for a church that does recognize the accrediting agency.  

 

None of them are doctoral programs.  

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RevTom   
30 minutes ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

I'm not in a position to say how easy the work is.

 

To be useful, the accrediting agency must be, in turn, recognized by the U. S. Dept. of Education. Unless of course, you plan to work for a church that does recognize the accrediting agency.  

 

None of them are doctoral programs.  

Wesley Theological Seminary has a Doctor of Ministry program, and is accredited by The Association of Theological Studies, which is recognised by the US Dept of Ed. The School of Divinity at Regent University offers several Doctorate degrees, and is accredited by Association of Theological Schools (ATS) and regionally by the Southern Association of Colleges and Schools Commission on Colleges, recognized by U.S. Dept of Ed.

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2 hours ago, RevTom said:

Wesley Theological Seminary has a Doctor of Ministry program, and is accredited by The Association of Theological Studies, which is recognised by the US Dept of Ed. The School of Divinity at Regent University offers several Doctorate degrees, and is accredited by Association of Theological Schools (ATS) and regionally by the Southern Association of Colleges and Schools Commission on Colleges, recognized by U.S. Dept of Ed.

 

That was impressive.  You do good work.  

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Amulet   

...I had someone ask me recently about the degrees. There are a lot of different ways to try to explain what is "legitimate", "real" or "recognized."

 

The bottom line to the general population is; if it isn't government regulated, it isn't recognized as legitimate. Isn't that the strangest thing?

When I phrase it that way, it is amazing just how much control government has over what information is sanctioned as true, valid or academically "worthy" of recognition. For some fields it is necessary. Others not so much. I also find it something to be cautious about.

 

And in the case of ULC degrees, some people are so accustomed to believing they need government regulation to feel validated, that any opportunities to learn outside of the government system becomes invalidated or are left behind. I think that is unfortunate when it comes to spiritual or religious matters especially. 

 

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RevSam   
2 hours ago, Amulet said:

...I had someone ask me recently about the degrees. There are a lot of different ways to try to explain what is "legitimate", "real" or "recognized."

 

The bottom line to the general population is; if it isn't government regulated, it isn't recognized as legitimate. Isn't that the strangest thing?

When I phrase it that way, it is amazing just how much control government has over what information is sanctioned as true, valid or academically "worthy" of recognition. For some fields it is necessary. Others not so much. I also find it something to be cautious about.

 

And in the case of ULC degrees, some people are so accustomed to believing they need government regulation to feel validated, that any opportunities to learn outside of the government system becomes invalidated or are left behind. I think that is unfortunate when it comes to spiritual or religious matters especially. 

 

 

Well, let's keep it real:

 

Government accreditation typically means the university or institute or degree program meets a certain staindard of rigor, education and training of the instructors themselves, even down to the safety and accessibility of the campus. 

Now, am I saying that it's not a self feeding machine, of course it is.  But, you also have to admit, a Ph.D. in Religion from a regionally accredited school in the United States is not the same thing as the Ph.D. from the ULC.   I'm not knocking it, hell, I have the ULC Ph.D. myself...  but there is definitely a reason why the Ph.D. doesn't qualify for any kind of accreditation other than the accrediting agency the Church itself started to accredit its own degrees.  ;]
 

That also said, I know Ph.D.s and Ed.D.s who don't have half the common sense Joe the Plumber does -- and is nowhere near as smart.   But, that said, a buddy of mine has a Ph.D. in Psychology that is one of the most intelligent people I know.

In my humble opinion, for what it's worth: degrees mean absolutely nothing if you don't have the presence and ability to back it up.  If a person has a presence and ability and the knowledge to back it up, sure, I'll call the person "Doc" or "Doctor," regardless of where s/he got their degree...   if they're a joke, and you can't take them seriously... well, there's another issue -- again, regardless of where they got their credentials.  Harvard or ULC.

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RevTom   
8 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

That was impressive.  You do good work.  

Thanks - I just like to validate the options and possibilities for people. While I think it is disappointing the degrees at ULC are virtually worthless academically, there are avenues to get valid PhDs and other degrees and retain our church affiliation here at ULC. Maybe some type of partnering with one of the accredited colleges and ULC would be good?

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51 minutes ago, RevTom said:

Thanks - I just like to validate the options and possibilities for people. While I think it is disappointing the degrees at ULC are virtually worthless academically, there are avenues to get valid PhDs and other degrees and retain our church affiliation here at ULC. Maybe some type of partnering with one of the accredited colleges and ULC would be good?

 

It's a thought.  The person to discuss that with is Amy over at ULC Seminary.  

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4 hours ago, Amulet said:

...I had someone ask me recently about the degrees. There are a lot of different ways to try to explain what is "legitimate", "real" or "recognized."

 

The bottom line to the general population is; if it isn't government regulated, it isn't recognized as legitimate. Isn't that the strangest thing?

When I phrase it that way, it is amazing just how much control government has over what information is sanctioned as true, valid or academically "worthy" of recognition. For some fields it is necessary. Others not so much. I also find it something to be cautious about.

 

And in the case of ULC degrees, some people are so accustomed to believing they need government regulation to feel validated, that any opportunities to learn outside of the government system becomes invalidated or are left behind. I think that is unfortunate when it comes to spiritual or religious matters especially. 

 

 

We are losing the distinction between taking a course to learn -- and taking a course to get a degree.  Taking a course just to learn is fully valid.  If the student wants a useful degree -- the degree needs to be useful.  Generally, that means accredited.  

 

At this point in my life, I think the best place to get knowledge is the Public Library.  There are no credentials, but in all other ways, it is the best possible deal.  

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Key   
3 hours ago, RevSam said:

 

Well, let's keep it real:

 

Government accreditation typically means the university or institute or degree program meets a certain staindard of rigor, education and training of the instructors themselves, even down to the safety and accessibility of the campus. 

Now, am I saying that it's not a self feeding machine, of course it is.  But, you also have to admit, a Ph.D. in Religion from a regionally accredited school in the United States is not the same thing as the Ph.D. from the ULC.   I'm not knocking it, hell, I have the ULC Ph.D. myself...  but there is definitely a reason why the Ph.D. doesn't qualify for any kind of accreditation other than the accrediting agency the Church itself started to accredit its own degrees.  ;]
 

That also said, I know Ph.D.s and Ed.D.s who don't have half the common sense Joe the Plumber does -- and is nowhere near as smart.   But, that said, a buddy of mine has a Ph.D. in Psychology that is one of the most intelligent people I know.

In my humble opinion, for what it's worth: degrees mean absolutely nothing if you don't have the presence and ability to back it up.  If a person has a presence and ability and the knowledge to back it up, sure, I'll call the person "Doc" or "Doctor," regardless of where s/he got their degree...   if they're a joke, and you can't take them seriously... well, there's another issue -- again, regardless of where they got their credentials.  Harvard or ULC.

Government accreditation means a program meets a standard set and regulations in order to receive some federal funding. If not, they lose both the funding and accreditation. At least that's how it seems to work to me.

I think accreditation should be done by a third party without a conflict of interest in the matter.

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2 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

[...] At this point in my life, I think the best place to get knowledge is the Public Library.  There are no credentials, but in all other ways, it is the best possible deal.  

 

Don't forget about university libraries. I don't know about the US, but here in the EU they are obliged to provide public access too...

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mark 45   
3 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

It's a thought.  The person to discuss that with is Amy over at ULC Seminary.  

no.amy is on leave of absence right now.discuss it with bro kevin instead.

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I have often visited the public library and read non fiction works.  What's the pay off?  Knowledge, plain and simple.  Perhaps not accredited in any university or school, but knowledge for it's own sake.  On the other hand, I attended college for two years, took such wonderful classes as Art appreciation and P.E., which were still requirements, and got a piece of paper that is accredited.  Which also does me absolutely no good in the jobs market.

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RevSam   
4 hours ago, Key said:

Government accreditation means a program meets a standard set and regulations in order to receive some federal funding. If not, they lose both the funding and accreditation. At least that's how it seems to work to me.

I think accreditation should be done by a third party without a conflict of interest in the matter.

 

There is third party accreditation -- in the United States, it's regional accreditation.  Most of those are private entities, or semi-public.  For example, one of the regional accrediting agencies in my area is AdvancEd.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AdvancED 

--Rev. Samuel
Universal Life Church of Michigan

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RevTom   
On 5/9/2017 at 0:50 PM, mererdog said:

You can teach math and it can have nothing to do with religion. You cant teach religion without religion. That's sort of obvious, isn't it? Give government authority over religious education, and you give government authority to pick and choose what can be taught and how. This gives them authority to say we can only be taught from a Catholic Bible, or that anyone who isn't a Baptist is unqualified to teach the Bible. 

As for compelling interest, the Bill of Rights exists because there are things where principle should always trump practical concerns.

Also, for the record, Harvard Divinity School describes itself as non-sectarian, not secular. 

There was actually legal action regarding this in Texas a few years back the outcome of which the Texas Supreme Court issued the decision that government has no place in legislating religious credentials and requirements in the case brought before it, H.E.B. Ministries v. Texas Higher Education Coordinating Board. The school in question, Tyndale, does have actual degree programs, however, with the normal course requirements expected of any degree program. The same is true of Bold Christian University. Some schools have no state recognized accreditation, but do have recognized religious body accreditations.

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12 hours ago, RevTom said:

There was actually legal action regarding this in Texas a few years back the outcome of which the Texas Supreme Court issued the decision that government has no place in legislating religious credentials and requirements in the case brought before it, H.E.B. Ministries v. Texas Higher Education Coordinating Board. The school in question, Tyndale, does have actual degree programs, however, with the normal course requirements expected of any degree program. The same is true of Bold Christian University. Some schools have no state recognized accreditation, but do have recognized religious body accreditations.

 

That was interesting.  Thank you.  

 

Do you see a trend here?

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RevTom   
8 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

 

That was interesting.  Thank you.  

 

Do you see a trend here?

I think that most colleges - at least those large enough to afford the accrediting fees - and I had no idea it was so expensive for colleges to maintain accreditation - will continue to retain their accreditation with the state agencies: I think the use of other accrediting bodies will be for those smaller colleges whose finances are marginal, and the ones that use spurious or no accrediting agencies mostly - but not always - are colleges you should be very wary of. Tyndale, which from what I understand is a respected college, refuses to submit to any accreditation at all. Bold Christian University is the same way, and it is an international long distance learning college.

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5 hours ago, RevTom said:

I think that most colleges - at least those large enough to afford the accrediting fees - and I had no idea it was so expensive for colleges to maintain accreditation - will continue to retain their accreditation with the state agencies: I think the use of other accrediting bodies will be for those smaller colleges whose finances are marginal, and the ones that use spurious or no accrediting agencies mostly - but not always - are colleges you should be very wary of. Tyndale, which from what I understand is a respected college, refuses to submit to any accreditation at all. Bold Christian University is the same way, and it is an international long distance learning college.

 

U.L.C. has it's own accrediting agency, which accredits their Ph.D. program.  This is not subtle.  The accrediting agency has the same address as the Church.  It might be tolerable, but for the church advertising it's accredited degree.  It does leave a bad taste.  

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On 7/30/2017 at 8:24 AM, RevTom said:

Thanks - I just like to validate the options and possibilities for people. While I think it is disappointing the degrees at ULC are virtually worthless academically, there are avenues to get valid PhDs and other degrees and retain our church affiliation here at ULC. Maybe some type of partnering with one of the accredited colleges and ULC would be good?

Greetings to you my brother,

 

I doubt any regionally accredited school would even consider that possiblity.  The amount of academics for a regionally accredited degree at any level is way beyond what the ULC calls for in offering their degrees.

 

In solidarity,

Rev. Calli

 

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RevTom   
2 hours ago, Rev. Calli said:

Greetings to you my brother,

 

I doubt any regionally accredited school would even consider that possiblity.  The amount of academics for a regionally accredited degree at any level is way beyond what the ULC calls for in offering their degrees.

 

In solidarity,

Rev. Calli

 

Honestly, I don't even know why ULC offers any "Degrees" at all. Basically they are just pretty pieces of paper to satiate one's ego. Outside ULC, they are worthless, it seems. I have done extensive study, but it was all decades ago. My life experiences won't even count toward any type of divinity degree on the outside, but I can take exams to shorten my length of study time in a college that uses those type tests. All in all, I think I will just get the book so I can see what Dr. Hemsley's and the others that wrote the books for ULC thoughts were regarding the doctorate. I still have my coursework books from the UMC and can buy more textbooks to keep up with current thought.

Edited by RevTom
poor choice of wording

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mererdog   
5 hours ago, RevTom said:

Honestly, I don't even know why ULC offers any "Degrees" at all. Basically they are just pretty pieces of paper to satiate one's ego. Outside ULC, they are worthless, it seems. 

I don't know what the actual motive is, but my best guess is that it brings in money. However unseemly that may be, money is critical for the continued operation of any organization, so it is a worthy motive.

That said, the degree programs fit perfectly within the ULC's goal of freedom through equality. Ministers can't get special treatment if everyone is a minister. A religious degree won't get you special treatment if those are easy to get. With both the ordination and the degrees, it isn't so much a legitimization of the person bearing the title as it is a delegitimization of the hierarchical systems that rely on an assumption that a title indicates some degree of superiority.

Edited by mererdog

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