Being Well-Mannered

[Atwater Vitki]

You bring up a good point Atwater Vitki and that is that many lower class people often lack well mannered role models.

What I believe we can do about it is education, education of the disadvantaged youth, during school and after school programs.

Can we blame a youth for using expletives if they hear that all the time from their parents?

Exactly, as with 99% of all "problems", the educating and example begins in the home.

When I was a toddler, my Grandparents babysat me while the folks worked. My "Mormor" and Poppy" were in their late 60's then as were most of their friends, or even older. Whether it was an afternoon "tea" or evening Bible study, when I was around that group - that all loved me to death btw- it was "Yes sir" and "No Thank You Ma'am" at all times. Not a single cuss word was used and those adults that smoked pipe, cigar or cigarette went outside on the screened in porch regardless of season.

We always passed right and served left (Scandinavian) at the dinner table, and while the ladies and kids cleaned up afterwards, the men always adjourned to the living room for coffee and conversation...etc etc...I simply didn't know any different as it was this way at every house I went to.

This is the other thing that is missing in today's world...continuity...it simply didn't matter who's house you were in, the rules were the same within limits of course. Overall though no matter where you went, the same etiquette, table manners, language and basic societal acceptances were adhered to.

This world has grown so fast and in such diverse ways that it's impossible for kids to really understand the differences between right and wrong, good and bad anymore. I say understand because there is a big difference between "knowing" and "understanding" these things, due to what was mentioned above about the definitions of the wide variety of people's actions. I don't mean the basics, killing, harming people and so forth, but the mannerisms and social etiquette things, but even those lines can be blurred at times. My ex, for instance, has no problem "conversing" in the same room with a TV blasting, stereo blaring and kids screaming and would sit there with a "What?" deer in the headlights look when I'd simply stop talking and demand some quiet.

I absolutely agree that the home is where the education begins for our youth. That's why in the summer I offer an art class for kids over at the park, across the street from us, as many of them don't even have paper and pencils at home (poor neighborhood area) and some of them have zero clue as to what even basic manners are. Last year (long story but I'll make it short) I had parents admonish me for making their kids ask for the snacks we provide with a "it's there for them too isn't it?" These were two kids, 8 and 10, that simply grabbed and stuffed their mouths (cupcakes Kay made) standing over the plate, dropping crumbs (out of their mouths) all over the other treats and wouldn't move to let other kids have any...ridiculous. These parents wouldn't "let" their kids be involved where there were those kinds of "restrictions" as the mom said. The 8 year old changed his ways, day one, well two, and would sneak over for the drawing (and of course snacks) but always asked with a "Please and Thank you," thereafter! Good little boy by himself that wasn't going to let a few words get in his way.

Blessings of Peace,

Edited February 26, 2012 by Atwater Vitki

[Hyper Real]

Exactly, as with 99% of all "problems", the educating and example begins in the home.

Yes but when the parents never knew they won't even be able to teach their children. They are not to blame, it is similar with parents who are more or less illiterate, how can you expect your children to read if you hardly read as a parent.

That's why I believe the lower classes should have access to professional help in this matter. Education and coaching should be available.

Take a lower class orphan and place him in an upper class family I can guarantee he will learn manners, there is no guarantee he will behave as such but he will certainly know and understand it.

By the way class an income does have a positive correlation but I have seem many with money with bad manners and I have seen poor with good manners.

In my opinion while money dictates breeding shows and noblesse oblige!

Edited February 27, 2012 by hyperreal

[Dorian Gray]

Yes but when the parents never knew they won't even be able to teach their children. They are not to blame, it is similar with parents who are more or less illiterate, how can you expect your children to read if you hardly read as a parent.

That's why I believe the lower classes should have access to professional help in this matter. Education and coaching should be available.

Take a lower class orphan and place him in an upper class family I can guarantee he will learn manners, there is no guarantee he will behave as such but he will certainly know and understand it.

By the way class an income does have a positive correlation but I have seem many with money with bad manners and I have seen poor with good manners.

In my opinion while money dictates breeding shows and noblesse oblige!

That is crap. Anyone who wants to learn...will. Especially things that are free like manners.

[BpCorey]

I was once well pampered, beats me how the gf found them in my size thou.

[grateful]

Yes but when the parents never knew they won't even be able to teach their children. They are not to blame, it is similar with parents who are more or less illiterate, how can you expect your children to read if you hardly read as a parent.

That's why I believe the lower classes should have access to professional help in this matter. Education and coaching should be available.

Take a lower class orphan and place him in an upper class family I can guarantee he will learn manners, there is no guarantee he will behave as such but he will certainly know and understand it.

By the way class an income does have a positive correlation but I have seem many with money with bad manners and I have seen poor with good manners.

In my opinion while money dictates breeding shows and noblesse oblige!

just fyi - it already IS available, and has been for a very long time, this is not to say it works all the time

before and aftercare programs, ditto

while I most definitely support social programs, having worked in them for long time, there are success stories and train wrecks, there are nicompoops and genius', there is sadness and unaduterated joy

if your point is that existing programs do not work, then I agree with you but don't deceive into thinking that it is not funded, my city taxes would show you how much goes into programming for children and families

[BrDevon]

One of the joys of one of my jobs is that I work with people who are elderly, and therefore remember the times when ettiquette was not only common, it was expected. It is unfortunate that the staff are encouraged to address the residents by first name. Being a creature of my parent's training, I simply must address people twice my age with a title. So we start having the likes of Mizz Alice and Mister Jason. They are quickly responded to with a sir or a ma'am. When I serve their meals, with very few exceptions, I stand to the left and serve them from that side. The exceptions are for the one table where I would have to bump a resident to get to her left side, and the other is is a resident who has lost his left eye and it allows him to see me and interact if I approach from the right. It is normally not proper to stand essentially directly in front of a guest when serving, but when dealing with those who have minimal hearing, it is a kindness to stand where you are well lit and to lower yourself to the face level of the diner to make it easier for them to speechread when you speak to them. I love to treat my residents well and give them a dining experience that is a cross between a fine dining experience and eating at a friend's house. Proper, but not fussy. One thing that tends to get me in trouble with my supervisor is that I often will allow dishes to remain on the table at a table with ladies present until the first lady leaves the table. Unless signalled to clear, I consider it rude to take dishes away until the lady departs. To do otherwise is an unspoken wish for your guest to leave. If the lady wishes to remain to speak with others at the table, she will indicate that she is finished, and the place setting may be removed. My manager "had words with me" over this point until my resident overheard her and pointed out that I was the only "gentleman" who served her who treated her as a lady and did not rush her away.

So much of ettiquette is simply trying to make those who are present feel comfortable. I am not a glory hound or trying to be pompous in my preentation. I do enjoy when we have showy meals like a tea or fancy meal and we break out all the forks and spoons or I can serve the ladies the crudites and tea cakes and cookies and spoil them rotten. Once in a while it is fun for them to get the full treatment, but we all agree it's like a little girl playing dress up - fun for a game or two once in a while, but over the top for a daily thing.

The best thing about the job, though, is that many of my residents show appreciation for little things, and that, too, is something that seems to be lacking. I was raised to try not to pass up an opportunity to express gratitude or extend a compliment. Not just to smooch someone's behind, but sincere appreciation. Few people are going to be offended by one who shows them appreciation.

[Hyper Real]

When I serve their meals, with very few exceptions, I stand to the left and serve them from that side.

Proper food serving etiquette demands serving from the right.

[BrDevon]

Proper food serving etiquette demands serving from the right.

In normal situations yes. I should have been clearer. Due to the needs of the folks I serve, I am on the diner's right (usually), which puts me on the "proper" side, however I am facing my diner when I serve, so in effect I am serving backwards. The reason for the back to the table approach is that when serving peopls e with hearing and eyesight issues, being able to be seen clearly when speaking is a plus (also with my own hearing issues, it allows me the best position to speechread the diner if they have a request of me). The other reason, which is sadly necessary due to the demographic I serve, is there are some diners that you can not turn your back to. Alzheimer's and dementia are nasty conditions.

[Dorian Gray]

That depends on how the food is being served.

The right if the food is pre-plated (the most common now)

The left if the food is being served individually where the waiter plates it at the table or the guest serves themselves. This is because most folks are right handed and would hold the container on with the left hand (away from the guest) and served with the waiter's right hand (which if standing behind the person would be easiest from the left).

Source: DoD Protocol manuals, years of going to high level dinning events with governors, senators, congressmen, and other senior civic and military leaders, and good old fashioned grandmother.

[BrDevon]

Yup. Man, you are making me want to press my dinner gloves and cummerbund. I miss formal meals.

[Hyper Real]

Modern times also require understanding of cultural and national differences and actually I believe we can learn from others and improve.

What ado you think are the largest dinner mistakes?

Licking fingers, using elbows, constantly switching knife and fork for cutting and eating, blowing the nose, burping, talking while eating, smacking?

[Dorian Gray]

Trust me, they are "fun" for me. Absolutely one of the jobs I could go without. I dislike getting dressed up in my Mess Dress.

[Dorian Gray]

Modern times also require understanding of cultural and national differences and actually I believe we can learn from others and improve.

What ado you think are the largest dinner mistakes?

Licking fingers, using elbows, constantly switching knife and fork for cutting and eating, blowing the nose, burping, talking while eating, smacking?

Elbows and talking while chewing

[Brother Kaman]

Modern times also require understanding of cultural and national differences and actually I believe we can learn from others and improve.

What ado you think are the largest dinner mistakes?

Licking fingers, using elbows, constantly switching knife and fork for cutting and eating, blowing the nose, burping, talking while eating, smacking?

Puking at the table as one of our Presidents did as a guest at a Japanese state dinner.

[Dorian Gray]

Puking at the table as one of our Presidents did as a guest at a Japanese state dinner.

in periods of the roman empire, that was considered a high honor, and people would puke and then gorge some more.

[Atwater Vitki]

"Licking fingers, using elbows, constantly switching knife and fork for cutting and eating, blowing the nose, burping, talking while eating, smacking?"

Ah, the sweet sounds and sights of a BBQ dinner at my son's in-laws.... haven't been back since, beings I almost pulled a Presidential Maneuver the last time watching the animals family eat. Man all that good training down the drain as my son has lowered himself to standards he certainly was not raised with. Oh and yeah, the "serve from the left thing", it may be a Scandinavian thing, but Mormor always taught from the left and she was a Domestic in high class home when she first came over from Sweden...governor of Connecticut, friends of Getty's are the only two I remember so I believe what Dorian said is right, without looking it up.

[Dorian Gray]

Modern times also require understanding of cultural and national differences and actually I believe we can learn from others and improve.

When dealing with Muslim folks, never do anything with the left hand (or show the sole of your foot for that matter). While dining in Riyadh‎ a number of years ago, a good friend of mine had a waiter scold him for eating with his left hand (he was left handed) with a nonstop barrage of “unclean, unclean, unclean…." until he switched hands.

[Hyper Real]

When dealing with Muslim folks, never do anything with the left hand (or show the sole of your foot for that matter).

I do not believe that has anything to do with Islam but instead is part of Middle Eastern culture.

[Dorian Gray]

only if you consider kosher being an "isreali" thing.

[Hyper Real]

only if you consider kosher being an "isreali" thing.

Excuse but what are you talking about?

I wrote:

"I do not believe that has anything to do with Islam but instead is part of Middle Eastern culture"

You answered:

"only if you consider kosher being an "isreali" thing."

That answer does not make any sense whatsoever.