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I think this is all apples and oranges. First come to an agreement on what strong is and how it is measured.

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"In fact, Gravitational force is 10 thousand billion billion billion billion times weaker than the Electromagnetic force. Well, it sort of makes sense because if the Gravitational force were stronger than the Electromagnetic one, we would fall right through the floor!"

I think the fact your brain hasn't been pulled through the carpet fibers proves it.

Of course.

Please cite your opposition to Hawking. I am merely a conduit in this conversation...... As are you, it seems...

I think this is all apples and oranges. First come to an agreement on what strong is and how it is measured.

NO. Falswo has not made his case. His is the pretend world of the statist..... I could go on ad nauseum, but I choose/agreed not to.

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NO. Falswo has not made his case. His is the pretend world of the statist..... I could go on ad nauseum, but I choose/agreed not to.

Ok Youch. put small small bits of paper out on a table. Then rub a comb through your hair and hold it above the paper.

The electromagnetic static energy in that little combs lifts and pulls the bits of paper away off the table from the full gravitational force of the whole earth. CASE CLOSED!

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And yet, If enough matter is present the slight gravitational force will cause the matter to accumulate together until, when it reaches a critical level the electromagnetic force will be overwhelmed. If a certain greater amount of matter is present, the weak force is overwhelmed, then finally the strong force is overwhelmed by yet more matter. In the end all other force can be overwhelmed by the force of gravity.

The bits of paper demonstration works in this part of the universe, and under the the conditions present here. This does not mean the same thing applies everywhere. It does not apply on the surface of a neutron star, nor past the event horizon of a singularity.

But you could say that under conditions a this force can overwhelm that force, under conditions b that force will overwhelm this force , and that in all conditions neither force is stronger.

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Gravity, electromagnetic fields, thermodynamics, etc. is merely the same dancer performing different dances. One cannot really compare which is greatest. They are all great within the limits or limitless of what they do.

Edited by Brother Kaman

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And yet, If enough matter is present the slight gravitational force will cause the matter to accumulate together until, when it reaches a critical level the electromagnetic force will be overwhelmed. If a certain greater amount of matter is present, the weak force is overwhelmed, then finally the strong force is overwhelmed by yet more matter. In the end all other force can be overwhelmed by the force of gravity.

The bits of paper demonstration works in this part of the universe, and under the the conditions present here. This does not mean the same thing applies everywhere. It does not apply on the surface of a neutron star, nor past the event horizon of a singularity.

But you could say that under conditions a this force can overwhelm that force, under conditions b that force will overwhelm this force , and that in all conditions neither force is stronger.

With enough matter!!! Lets see since matter is massive amounts of condensed energy to begin with given equal amounts of both, say a gram of electromagnetism and a gram of gravity (if it were possible to contrast equal measures of both) then once again electromagnetism would over power gravity by leaps and bounds.

The scenarios you listed include massive massive amounts of matter which shoots the amount of concentrated energy off the charts. There is no wonder then it seems as if gravity wins. A few billion mice could take on Hercules and win too. :)

Edited by Fawzo

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Ok Youch. put small small bits of paper out on a table. Then rub a comb through your hair and hold it above the paper.

The electromagnetic static energy in that little combs lifts and pulls the bits of paper away off the table from the full gravitational force of the whole earth. CASE CLOSED!

And yet neither the comb or the paper bits falls off the face of the planet, nor defies universal gravitational forces that shape planets, galaxies and universes. After all, planets are not drawn together, clumped together like bits of paper, under some galactic comb. Case closed, really? Come on dude, seriously, stop debating me and debate instead Hawking's assertion. Or, if you like, the assertion itself.

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And yet neither the comb or the paper bits falls off the face of the planet, nor defies universal gravitational forces that shape planets, galaxies and universes. After all, planets are not drawn together, clumped together like bits of paper, under some galactic comb. Case closed, really? Come on dude, seriously, stop debating me and debate instead Hawking's assertion. Or, if you like, the assertion itself.

I don't understand what portion of this factual statement you don't understand.

"In fact, Gravitational force is 10 thousand billion billion billion billion times weaker than the Electromagnetic force. Well, it sort of makes sense because if the Gravitational force were stronger than the Electromagnetic one, we would fall right through the floor!"

Where is Hawkings statement that contradicts that. No link please

Edited by Fawzo

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I don't know why this is drifting into physics. Still, if we must..... It is the positive and negative charges within the atom -- the electrostatic charges -- that hold matter together; thereby producing gravity. :)

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NO. Falswo has not made his case. His is the pretend world of the statist..... I could go on ad nauseum, but I choose/agreed not to.

Ok Youch. put small small bits of paper out on a table. Then rub a comb through your hair and hold it above the paper.

The electromagnetic static energy in that little combs lifts and pulls the bits of paper away off the table from the full gravitational force of the whole earth. CASE CLOSED!

And yet neither the comb or the paper bits falls off the face of the planet, nor defies universal gravitational forces that shape planets, galaxies and universes. After all, planets are not drawn together, clumped together like bits of paper, under some galactic comb. Case closed, really? Come on dude, seriously, stop debating me and debate instead Hawking's assertion. Or, if you like, the assertion itself.

I don't understand what portion of this factual statement you don't understand.

"In fact, Gravitational force is 10 thousand billion billion billion billion times weaker than the Electromagnetic force. Well, it sort of makes sense because if the Gravitational force were stronger than the Electromagnetic one, we would fall right through the floor!"

Where is Hawkings statement that contradicts that. No link please

Do you see where your debate/logical skills fall apart? You claimed a certain thing (above), and without looking anything up online or in books, I refuted it. Then you introduce a statement, which may or may not have been cited previously, as if the word of God/Fawzo has come down and decided the point. What, am I supposed to just believe, because your quoted statement includes multiple uses of the word "billions" that you are correct? THEN, you don't want repeated links that cites Hawking's assertion, as that would be....what, like refuting global warming?

Really, you think we should fall through the earth if the gravitational force were the strongest in the universe?? Really? Let me know when you want to have a real discussion. Based on your feigned logic, we should all fall into ourselves based on the forces within the electron. Don't waste my time.

If you want to argue Hawking, go ahead. I merely cited/quoted that man. Seems, like always, you have a hard on to "win" against my posts rather than engage in dialog.

I tell you what....the next time this issue comes around in my life, I will grab a chunk and provide it to you (AGAIN)....not that it will do any good, but it will be fun for me to watch how you find fault with it.

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http://www.colorado.edu/philosophy/vstenger/Cosmo/ant_encyc.pdf

1. The electromagnetic force is 39 orders of magnitude stronger than the gravitational

force. If they were more comparable in strength, stars would have collapsed long

before life had a chance to evolve.

There are a great many links and sources that describe what you state. The most common reference is the "four fundamental forces."

But what Hawking was describing was THE strongest force in the universe. Of the four fundamental forces, gravity is usually considered the weakest force in the universe but in the form of a super massive black hole, gravity is actually strong enough to not only pull light in but it can also hold whole galaxies together. While a magnet may be able to pull something away from the surface of the earth it would never stack up next to a super massive black hole. The example of a magnet as big as a black hole is ridiculous proofing. Heres a better example: take all the matter in the universe and make it into the biggest black hole ever, then take all the magnetic material in the universe and make an object next to this black hole. it would be like comparing Earth and the the Milky Way. There just isn't enough magnetism in the universe for it to be of an significant force. Gravity on the other hand is everywhere, and in everything. and forms of mass produces gravity.

When super massive black holes are found to not be the strongest thing in the universe, perhaps Hawking will then be proven wrong.

Thank you for your patience with me.

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There are a great many links and sources that describe what you state. The most common reference is the "four fundamental forces."

But what Hawking was describing was THE strongest force in the universe. Of the four fundamental forces, gravity is usually considered the weakest force in the universe but in the form of a super massive black hole, gravity is actually strong enough to not only pull light in but it can also hold whole galaxies together. While a magnet may be able to pull something away from the surface of the earth it would never stack up next to a super massive black hole. The example of a magnet as big as a black hole is ridiculous proofing. Heres a better example: take all the matter in the universe and make it into the biggest black hole ever, then take all the magnetic material in the universe and make an object next to this black hole. it would be like comparing Earth and the the Milky Way. There just isn't enough magnetism in the universe for it to be of an significant force. Gravity on the other hand is everywhere, and in everything. and forms of mass produces gravity.

When super massive black holes are found to not be the strongest thing in the universe, perhaps Hawking will then be proven wrong.

Thank you for your patience with me.

All matter was once collected in one spot and yet some force blew it into tiny quantum bits throughout our Universe. The background radiation which is electromagnetic energies makes this clear.

I would think that once again electromagnetic energy won that battle. Also doesn't light escape massive black holes all the time in the form of pulsars and quasars where once again electromagnetic energy is stronger.

I'm not big on science but I'm sure equal amounts of matter and electromagnetic energy will result in the electromagnetic energy winning every time. Don't need to go the massive size of black holes. Take any small niobium magnet and place next to it an equal size piece of iron. You might want to keep your fingers out of the way as the electromagnetism may take your fingers off after its shrugs off the effects of gravity like a flea.

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I don't understand what portion of this factual statement you don't understand.

"In fact, Gravitational force is 10 thousand billion billion billion billion times weaker than the Electromagnetic force. Well, it sort of makes sense because if the Gravitational force were stronger than the Electromagnetic one, we would fall right through the floor!"

Where is Hawkings statement that contradicts that. No link please

If the electromagnetic force cannot be overpowered by gravity then how is it that neutron stars have all the electrons squished out of them?

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If the electromagnetic force cannot be overpowered by gravity then how is it that neutron stars have all the electrons squished out of them?

Never claimed the electromagnetic force could not be over powered by enough gravity. Mass is condensed energy after all.

How could the electrons escape from such a strong gravitational pull. If they were forced out of the neutron star itself shouldn't they they still be pulled to the vicinity of said star?

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Never claimed the electromagnetic force could not be over powered by enough gravity. Mass is condensed energy after all.

How could the electrons escape from such a strong gravitational pull. If they were forced out of the neutron star itself shouldn't they they still be pulled to the vicinity of said star?

Supernovas that produce neutron stars blast everything that is not a neutron out of the star system on a tidal wave of neutrinos. And technically the electrons are not squished out but squished into the protons to produce neutrons. Gravity presses the electromagnetically repulsed electrons and protons into each other to form neutrons and neutrinos.

In black hole gravity does the same thing with the strong force, and matter collapses infinity into itself with nothing left to stand against gravity

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Never claimed the electromagnetic force could not be over powered by enough gravity. Mass is condensed energy after all.

Supernovas that produce neutron stars blast everything that is not a neutron out of the star system on a tidal wave of neutrinos. And technically the electrons are not squished out but squished into the protons to produce neutrons. Gravity presses the electromagnetically repulsed electrons and protons into each other to form neutrons and neutrinos.

In black hole gravity does the same thing with the strong force, and matter collapses infinity into itself with nothing left to stand against gravity

panpareil, fawzo above just agreed with Hawking.

repeat: what Hawking was describing was THE strongest force in the universe. Of the four fundamental forces, gravity is usually considered the weakest force in the universe but in the form of a super massive black hole, gravity is actually strong enough to not only pull light in but it can also hold whole galaxies together. While a magnet may be able to pull something away from the surface of the earth it would never stack up next to a super massive black hole. The example of a magnet as big as a black hole is ridiculous proofing. Heres a better example: take all the matter in the universe and make it into the biggest black hole ever, then take all the magnetic material in the universe and make an object next to this black hole. it would be like comparing Earth and the the Milky Way. There just isn't enough magnetism in the universe for it to be of an significant force. Gravity on the other hand is everywhere, and in everything. and forms of mass produces gravity.

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panpareil, fawzo above just agreed with Hawking.

repeat: what Hawking was describing was THE strongest force in the universe. Of the four fundamental forces, gravity is usually considered the weakest force in the universe but in the form of a super massive black hole, gravity is actually strong enough to not only pull light in but it can also hold whole galaxies together. While a magnet may be able to pull something away from the surface of the earth it would never stack up next to a super massive black hole. The example of a magnet as big as a black hole is ridiculous proofing. Heres a better example: take all the matter in the universe and make it into the biggest black hole ever, then take all the magnetic material in the universe and make an object next to this black hole. it would be like comparing Earth and the the Milky Way. There just isn't enough magnetism in the universe for it to be of an significant force. Gravity on the other hand is everywhere, and in everything. and forms of mass produces gravity.

That describes the singularity that produced the Big Bang.

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