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Pete

Liberal Christianity

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WOW! It's nice to see people actually talking about the Bible in a constructive way for a change, or at the least thinking. A Liberal Christian is a person that believes in more than one God, but you already know that. And how many Gods do we have? I guess it depends on a person, weather he is fleshly or spiritually minded! Let me give you a clue, if you believe in more that one God, and there is only one God, you just might make him very upset. I'm sure not going to judge, that has already been done. I feel Pete is a good person also, and I don't think anybody is actually going to a place you call HELL! I know the Bible reads that some will go to a place called Hell a little earlier than others, but it also reads that most people are simply born over and over until they overcome the flesh and become spirit. But it's only a very few hard working souls that receive that reward. You remember the verse in John, ye must be born again, that which is born of the flesh is flesh and that which is born of the spirit is spirit. If people would only try a little and read between the lines they would know these things. But you know how this ole world works, people want the easy way out. If a person is fleshly minded they let others teach them and take the easy way out, or no way at all. It's just the way people are. I didn't mean to say anything bad about anyone, just making a statement on what I've learned from the spirit view of matters. You ever read a Bible with heart, I mean like you really care about your future, and possibly the future of others around you. Wow, can you believe in a life where we live forever??? That would be awesome, and if you don't want it, that's ok. I suspect that if a time comes where if people stand before a maker and never took the time to find out the truth, well you can say that you did it your way! I did it my way! Ha! Sorry folks, I like everybody and hope for the best for all. But I chose to try my best to do it his way thank you. Enjoy life!

Carpenter

Sorry Carpenter but that is just not true. Some maybe do and some maybe do not, but the Liberal position is not that there are many Gods but that we cannot fully explain God. God maybe God, Gods, or something else we are not aware of and we each see God according to our individual perception (a bit like the three blind men and the elephant). I personally only believe in one God but I can see the position of others who see things differently because we just do not know fully.

The argument that if God is omnipotent and omnipresent and sees the cruelties of this world and does nothing then can God be loving? If God cannot stop the cruelties of this life then how can God be omnipotent or omnipresent.. I personally prefer to think of God as the fountain of the spiritual things in life, but that is only my view and in somethings we just do not have easy answer to it.

Likewise some liberals believe in reincarnation and many lives towards spiritual growth and some do not. I personally do not have a position on this as just do not know enough to say.

Being a liberal is the freedom to ask questions and to doubt and come up with things that appear to make sense to ourselves, rather than having a dogma thrust down one throat until they feel they say nothing more than just keep on repeating it. It is an acceptance that growth and faith is a growing revelation rather than one that just took place 2000yrs ago.

Edited by Pete

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Why would an omniscient God ever get upset? It makes no sense for him to get upset over anything if he is omniscient unless he is a drama queen.

He knows everything that is going to happen before it happens and he programmed all the parameteres for the game he created himself. If he gets upset with anyone or anything it should be himself over his programming capabilities.

Even if in his program he has created the greatest chaotic quantum random generator and something happens he was not expecting he should never get upset as it was his doing. But being omniscient means that something he was not expecting would never arise!!!

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Well Fawzo, sounds like you have it all figured out with your fleshly wisdom. I believe you are basically a smart person. A fleshly mind is simply one that you receive from the world. If you were Spanish you would have a Spanish mind, if Japanese a Japanese mind and so on. You sound like you have an English mind of some sort and you are programmed to think only from what you know from your past. Not to offend you, but you have no spiritual inner soul. It’s what most everybody has. It’s what’s called fleshly wisdom. If you were to write a book and we were to read it, we would receive a small portion of your fleshly knowledge you have received from this world. If we believe what you believe and you passed away one day before us that believe in you, we would be known as believing on something from beneath. When someone is buried underground they are from beneath not from above. Now Christ is the only one we know that has resurrected and went upward, so if we find a writing from Christ we become from above because he is no longer considered from beneath. In the Old Testament God was above talking down to us. He was a fire by night and a dark cloud by day, but he was always above. But in John 8:23 it reads; Yee are from beneath, I am from above: Yee are of this world, I am not of this world. And so on, but it’s not wrong the way we start, we are just not complete until we get Christ in us. And it’s not hocus pocus, it’s actually real for us that know the truth. So it’s not a bad thing to be fleshly minded, your just not complete. So it’s if you go down now or real soon, you can’t be raised. And to spread fleshly wisdom can be a disaster if someone believes like you do!!! In 1st John 4:4-6 it reads, Ye are of God little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, then he that is in the world. They are of the world, therefore speake they of the world, and the world heareth them. We are of God: hee that knoweth God, heareth us: he that is not of God heareth not us, hereby know wee the spirit of trueth and the spirit of errour. And so on! So it just might be that you can not hear, ever thought about it. But it’s all there; we simply have to read if we have enough time left in this world. So actually to say anything without Christ in us is simply worldly! And you can absolutely NOT just walk down some isle at a local church and believe in some preacher, you have to read the correct Bible and put that spirit inside you. If we don’t, Well??? Have a nice day! Carpenter

post-4896-12699588368423.jpg

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Sorry Carpenter but that is just not true. Some maybe do and some maybe do not, but the Liberal position is not that there are many Gods but that we cannot fully explain God. God maybe God, Gods, or something else we are not aware of and we each see God according to our individual perception (a bit like the three blind men and the elephant). I personally only believe in one God but I can see the position of others who see things differently because we just do not know fully.

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I can see your argument, not that we are here to argue. But if you claim to not know why then don’t you find the answers??? And if God came into this world to keep complete order then he would have to be a part of this world. I’m glad we are not robots, but I totally agree that God should step in and help some really bad situations, and I'm sure he does through wisdome! But we are in a Grace period of some sort where he has chosen to let us run a course till all is fulfilled. I don’t actually know bad things because my world is full of security, in that I’m basically healthy, and lots of blessings. I worry sometimes about some things, but that’s basically it. God has it under control as far as I can see, we don’t have a total global catastrophe yet, but it might be coming. And to be honest, I don’t have all the answers, I just happened to fall on something years back while reading several versions of Biblical books and Bibles. But it’s only because I tried to find the answers I so patiently looked for. Seek and you will find! And I promise you it’s there if you chose to look for it. But don’t take anybody’s word for it, find out for your self. I’m not going to say I’m perfect, just trying to find that perfect word so at least part of me can be perfect. I can sence you have never really read a Bible through in your life like most people. Nobody can make it that way. I don't understand why people even think they have a chance with just fleshly wisdome, wisdome from this world. Have a nice day, O-yea, and good luck with knowing that one God you believe in!!! carpenter!

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you have to read the correct Bible

I find this absolutely hilarious coming from someone who apparently hasn't even considered the Preface to his own "authorized" version (itself derived from Greek translations of Hebrew texts.) "They that are wise, had rather have their judgments at liberty in differences of readings, than to be captivated to one, when it may be the other." I do not doubt that the word of God is contained within, but to claim it is the sole and ultimate authority is to display an ignorance and arrogance that even the translators did not possess. "For is the kingdom of God to become words or syllables? Why should we be in bondage to them if we may be free, use one precisely when we may use another no less fit, as commodiously?" Personally I prefer the 1613 KJV, but don't tell my wife. :thumbu:

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I can see your argument, not that we are here to argue. But if you claim to not know why then don't you find the answers??? And if God came into this world to keep complete order then he would have to be a part of this world. I'm glad we are not robots, but I totally agree that God should step in and help some really bad situations, and I'm sure he does through wisdome! But we are in a Grace period of some sort where he has chosen to let us run a course till all is fulfilled. I don't actually know bad things because my world is full of security, in that I'm basically healthy, and lots of blessings. I worry sometimes about some things, but that's basically it. God has it under control as far as I can see, we don't have a total global catastrophe yet, but it might be coming. And to be honest, I don't have all the answers, I just happened to fall on something years back while reading several versions of Biblical books and Bibles. But it's only because I tried to find the answers I so patiently looked for. Seek and you will find! And I promise you it's there if you chose to look for it. But don't take anybody's word for it, find out for your self. I'm not going to say I'm perfect, just trying to find that perfect word so at least part of me can be perfect. I can sence you have never really read a Bible through in your life like most people. Nobody can make it that way. I don't understand why people even think they have a chance with just fleshly wisdome, wisdome from this world. Have a nice day, O-yea, and good luck with knowing that one God you believe in!!! carpenter!

First you say you do not want to argue, but I do not understand what you refer too. . Then you tell me you do not have all the answers but you can promise me the answer is there. How, I do not not know. Thirdly you sense I have not read the bible. I possess over thirty differing version of the bible and yes, I have read the bible from cover to cover. So I guess your senses are not so tuned in.

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Well Fawzo, sounds like you have it all figured out with your fleshly wisdom. I believe you are basically a smart person. A fleshly mind is simply one that you receive from the world. If you were Spanish you would have a Spanish mind, if Japanese a Japanese mind and so on. You sound like you have an English mind of some sort and you are programmed to think only from what you know from your past. Not to offend you, but you have no spiritual inner soul. It's what most everybody has. It's what's called fleshly wisdom. If you were to write a book and we were to read it, we would receive a small portion of your fleshly knowledge you have received from this world. If we believe what you believe and you passed away one day before us that believe in you, we would be known as believing on something from beneath. When someone is buried underground they are from beneath not from above. Now Christ is the only one we know that has resurrected and went upward, so if we find a writing from Christ we become from above because he is no longer considered from beneath. In the Old Testament God was above talking down to us. He was a fire by night and a dark cloud by day, but he was always above. But in John 8:23 it reads; Yee are from beneath, I am from above: Yee are of this world, I am not of this world. And so on, but it's not wrong the way we start, we are just not complete until we get Christ in us. And it's not hocus pocus, it's actually real for us that know the truth. So it's not a bad thing to be fleshly minded, your just not complete. So it's if you go down now or real soon, you can't be raised. And to spread fleshly wisdom can be a disaster if someone believes like you do!!! In 1st John 4:4-6 it reads, Ye are of God little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, then he that is in the world. They are of the world, therefore speake they of the world, and the world heareth them. We are of God: hee that knoweth God, heareth us: he that is not of God heareth not us, hereby know wee the spirit of trueth and the spirit of errour. And so on! So it just might be that you can not hear, ever thought about it. But it's all there; we simply have to read if we have enough time left in this world. So actually to say anything without Christ in us is simply worldly! And you can absolutely NOT just walk down some isle at a local church and believe in some preacher, you have to read the correct Bible and put that spirit inside you. If we don't, Well??? Have a nice day! Carpenter

8 "'How can you say, "We are wise because we have the word of the Lord," when your teachers have twisted it by writing lies? Jer 8:8 (NLT)

Carpenter my belief is that Christ is all and in All. Remember with what judgement ye mete it shall be meted out to you again. Judge not lest ye be judged. Your vision seems very narrow to me, when you cannot recognize the Divine in all things. It may be very hard to perceive the Divine with eyes of fear or in beings acting out of their fears but there is nothing that exists that does not have their being within the Divine.

Seek and ye shall find. If you look for the Divine in anything and anyone you shall surely find it.

You seem to seek for the Divine through external sources while I believe the Divine was there all along and one only had to become cognizant of its Presence. You appear to think the Divine can be defined and encapsulated within the pages of a book full of errors and babarism while I seek the Divine in all things.

Have a great day as well!

Brightest Blessings!!!

BTW - I wished I had things all figured out it would save me hours of meditation and seeking.

Edited by Fawzo

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Well Fawzo... Not to offend you, but you have no spiritual inner soul.

Well Carpenter, "not to offend you",

but you have just made a very ARROGANT judgment.

Edited by Hexalpa

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Well Carpenter, "not to offend you",

but you have just made a very ARROGANT judgment.

I also believe he did not answer Fawzo's statement. It was a smoke screen reply of judgments and threats (IMO).

If God is Omnipotent and knows all then why allow such suffering in this world. If God is powerful enough to stop such suffering but chooses not to, then how can God be described as good and loving. If God knows the outcome of all that he is supposed to have created, then why judge us. God is supposed to have created us knowing we would fail. If God chooses not to see the outcome, then God has limitations (whether or not God made them) and is therefore not Omnipotent.

There are so many differing ways of asking these questions about the biblical concept of God and they are worth while questions (IMO). To blame Fawzo for asking them and calling him soulless and earthly, is a sign of disrespect (IMO) and I believe reflects an inability to give a more considerate and appropriate reply. Even the bible says in Matt. 7:1 "Do not judge, or you too will be judged".

It is fine to say one does not agree with something that is said or have a differing opinion but few here would consider it respectful to back that up with overt or covert threats and name calling.

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I guess it comes down to research. Can a person demonstrate that a person who has had hands laid upon them stands more chance of recovery?

Is any recovery rate different from the norm? Can such events be reproduced as evidence?

Noone seems to be able to pass tests. Otherwise, someone would have Randi's money by now.

The One Million Dollar Paranormal Challenge

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No one seems to be able to pass tests.

Where have you been, dude?

This place has been getting boring in your absence.

P.S. -at- Pete, RE: "Laying on of hands". Let us not underestimate the healing power of human touch. It's not "religion", and it's not "magic".

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Genuine deception can also produce genuine fear.

It's hard to be scared by a horror movie about the supernatural, if you don't believe in the supernatural.

I know many Catholics thought "The Exorcist" years ago was soooo scary. A lot of them believe in the stuff in the movie.

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I find this absolutely hilarious coming from someone who apparently hasn't even considered the Preface to his own "authorized" version (itself derived from Greek translations of Hebrew texts.) "They that are wise, had rather have their judgments at liberty in differences of readings, than to be captivated to one, when it may be the other." I do not doubt that the word of God is contained within, but to claim it is the sole and ultimate authority is to display an ignorance and arrogance that even the translators did not possess. "For is the kingdom of God to become words or syllables? Why should we be in bondage to them if we may be free, use one precisely when we may use another no less fit, as commodiously?" Personally I prefer the 1613 KJV, but don't tell my wife. :thumbu:

thumbsup%281%29.gif

(Prithy, I didst not knowest there was a correct bible!)

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Where have you been, dude?

This place has been getting boring in your absence.

P.S. -at- Pete, RE: "Laying on of hands". Let us not underestimate the healing power of human touch. It's not "religion", and it's not "magic".

I do not really want to go back to this debate. I think we know how we both think on that one.

Edited by Pete

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I do not really want to go back to this debate. I think we know how we both think on that one.

As for myself, I believe in the psycho-physical benefits derived from the tactile expression of human caring.

It is a facet of our animal nature...pre-intellectual, subliminal...a physical benefit of knowing (tactilely) that "we are not alone"...we are a member of "the pack", "the herd", "the tribe"... others care about us.

That is extremely powerful, yet unquantifiable.

Edited by Hexalpa

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Where have you been, dude?

This place has been getting boring in your absence.

Thanks. It's nice to be missed.

P.S. -at- Pete, RE: "Laying on of hands". Let us not underestimate the healing power of human touch. It's not "religion", and it's not "magic".

I don't underestimate the effect of interaction with other lifeforms, in general. According to the CDC, simply having a pet to keep you company can increase your lifespan. However, I also can see the benefit of being fooled by someone who's palming chicken livers from under the table, and pretending to pull them out of a cancer victim. Pleseabos can give people the hope they need to keep fighting, but noone can put their hands on someone, and produce results worthy of passing a test under scientific scrutiny. At least, noone who's willing to do so, as of yet.

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As for myself, I believe in the psycho-physical benefits derived from the tactile expression of human caring.

It is a facet of our animal nature...pre-intellectual, subliminal...a physical benefit of knowing (tactilely) that "we are not alone"...we are a member of "the pack", "the herd", "the tribe"... others care about us.

That is extremely powerful, yet unquantifiable.

I recognise that touch is important to human beings. If you do not give stimulus to a new born baby it will die even if it got all other care. Everyone likes to feel loved and to be able to get undivided attention from someone can be rewarding to the esteem and I guess touch plays a part there.

However, I have not seen any credible research that can justify that there is some sort of energy being passed between the healer and the patient when they are being touched. There are also some anecdotal articles where people have praised the power of touch in their lives, but again I know of no credible research from any reputable scientific body that says such "healing sessions" are more successful than the given norm (or experimental control).

I therefore take the position of not saying it does not work but do say I know of no evidence that it does.

Each to their own..

Edited by Pete

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I recognise that touch is important to human beings. If you do not give stimulus to a new born baby it will die even if it got all other care. Everyone likes to feel loved and to be able to get undivided attention from someone can be rewarding to the esteem and I guess touch plays a part there.

However, I have not seen any credible research that can justify that there is some sort of energy being passed between the healer and the patient when they are being touched. There are also some anecdotal articles where people have praised the power of touch in their lives, but again I know of no credible research from any reputable scientific body that says such "healing sessions" are more successful than the given norm (or experimental control).

I therefore take the position of not saying it does not work but do say I know of no evidence that it does.

Each to their own..

Hmmm, I personally am of the opinion that the benefit and the healing power of the touching, and other activities such as prayer, meditation, and ceremonies, have an emotional impact on the participants and that creates a healing influence.

There must be scientific studies to support this, but whether there are or not, my own life experience convinces me of it.

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Hmmm, I personally am of the opinion that the benefit and the healing power of the touching, and other activities such as prayer, meditation, and ceremonies, have an emotional impact on the participants and that creates a healing influence.

There must be scientific studies to support this, but whether there are or not, my own life experience convinces me of it.

There are studies that say it helps with a persons self esteem but none that, I know of, that says it actually can demonstrably heal someone physically. The court is also out on the issue of pray and ceremony. There are varying studies, some for and some against, and it just suggests that there is no real conclusive evidence to support either position.

That said, I believe its up to whatever each individual wants to believe. I have to say I like it when people send me energies, well wishes and prayers, whether or not the research backs it up.

I said earlier I did not want to debate it. I hold to my position until the credible research does appear. There is little use debating it (IMO). Whatever the research, I believe some find it helpful and it gives them hope in their lives and I am not going to knock that. Belief is important.

Edited by Pete

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