Liberal Christianity


Pete
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Hey Pete,

Just wanted to throw in a bit of encouragement and thank you for sharing your edifying and love filled belief system. If you've not discovered it yet you might like to take a poke around at www.tentmaker.org - the homepage of a strong Biblical Universalism movement which contains some compelling Biblical arguments and evidence in support of many of the views you've expressed here, including examples of significant politicaly motivated translation differences through the centuries and quotes from ancient scholars of the day regarding common beliefs among Christians of days long past.

You might find the Jesus Seminar really intersting too!

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'Pete' date='06 January 2010

There is much comment as to what is a Liberal Christian or indeed does such a thing exist. Some say we are not Christian.

I cannot speak for all Liberals, so I hope people will understand that I speak from a person viewpoint.

Much of the criticism that is laid against the liberal school of thought is that the concept is not biblical. The answer, I give to that is that is, being not biblical is the whole point, as liberals describe the bible as a collection of documents from differing recourses, written by man, choreographed to fit some of the Old Testament writings, and not the actual infallible words of God. Conservatives, on the hand, argue strongly that the Bible is the actual inerrant word of God. Liberals and Conservatives are therefore polarised at differing ends of the spectrum that is Christian theology.

Yep, WOW Pete. you are really confused and not in the least bit saved at all as far as any Bible reads. It’s a shame for a person like yourself to know scripture so well, only to perish in the end. But I like your piece, you just need to study more. You sound like a really smart person, and I know it took a lot of time and thought to establish this piece. For a person to trash Gods word needs some serious help. You are correct about some things, the bibles are confusing and if a person doesn’t continue reading the different versions, he may not find the one and only correct version. There is one true version that all the rest come from, and all the rest are generics of this Original Version. That’s why you see the way you see, blindly! I’m in no way talking against you, I actually enjoyed reading your piece. If you can remember from your readings when Christ was on the Cross, over his head he had written, “King of the Jews”, in three languages, Hebrew, Greek, & Latin. This is the elements that make up our Original Bible that we have. No one uses this version in any Church that I know of today, maybe one or two small churches. All the Churches today use the Generic versions created by man. But in the original you have to look behind the words. If you chose to look only on the surface you will be blinded, like trying to see Moses face while he was wearing the veil to cover it. Also it is a book that is sealed. Most people look at the surface of being sealed. They think that to be sealed that it is locked. Not true! A seal is a way to prove its truth. Isaiah 29:11, 12, 13 reads: “And the vision of all is become unto you, as the words of a book that is sealed,” and so on!!! It simply states that no one really cares enough to read the Bibles and find the actual truth of the matter. I’ll get to the seals in a moment, but first I want to discuss the part about people making up things in the bibles you talked about. You’re right about that part. Like I said, they are the Generic versions that are made to please people. The Bible industry is very commercialized in that if it isn’t easy, people just don’t want it. Christ tells us about the Generic versions in John 5: 39, “Search the scriptures, for in them ye think ye have eternal life, and they are they which testify of me.” What he is saying here is that even if you read the Generic versions of the Bible they will state claim to the original. OK lets look at the seals. Back in the old days they use to send a letter and on the letter they use to drip wax from a candle on it and press the persons ring in the wax and this was called a seal. It was a way to prove the letter was the original. Esther 8: 8 and Daniel 6:15 “sealed with the Kings ring. The seal is to establish the truth. The seals are all in the Original Bible and will establish which one is the truth. But on the front page you can see the two ring prints. Also the Original is in two forms but the exact same Bible word for word and letter and letter. The old Royal Gothic print and the modern Roman print. It’s the only one of its kind to follow Genesis 41: 32 “it is done twice because it is established by God”. Also look in Deut. 19: 15. Matthew 18: 16, and it’s read, I and My Father are one. Another seal is in 2 Timothy 2: 9 reads, “the word of God is not bound. There is no copyright on the original, because it’s Gods word! If a bible is copyrighted you cannot make copies and sell them or give them away, by law they will put you in jail!!! And if it is copyrighted then you receive a curse. Jeremiah 17: 5 cursed be the man that trusteth in man!!! There are no page numbers on the pages of the original because it’s eternal in the heavens. Yep, and many, many more seals are there to be revealed if you chose. But it is in a parable form for a reason, because most of all people just will not even have a chance of being “Saved”. So it’s ok to say what you want about the many Bibles. You are probably right about the most part! But one Bible has words behind the words. Kind of like a person is made. You ever been driving down the road and something from inside tells you that you might have left you wallet at home? You ever had thoughts that keep repeating in your mind? Yep, we have an inner and outer spirit. We are just built that way, and so is the original Bible. So if you simply read it, the answers will come naturally. 1st John 2:27, look carefully at the lettering and how it reads, But the anointing which ye haue receiued of him, abideth in you : and yee need not that any man teach you : But, as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is trueth, and is no lye: and euen as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. Have a nice day, maybe in the next life!

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is that last post meant to be some kind of threat? Hey, have a nice day in this life, bro. and Pete, I'll always appreciate what you've done and how you've helped us here in Baltimore...things don't always work out, but then again, things aren't always what they seem, and it ain't over yet.

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Some say we are not Christian.

I cannot speak for all Liberals,

so I hope people will understand that I speak from a person(al) viewpoint.

Allow me to say "for the record" that after reading "the entirety" of your post, that I really don't think you have very much in common with ANY of the Liberal Christians that I have ever known.

I don't understand how you can even suggest that YOU are a Liberal Christian,

and in (virtually) "your next breath" go on to say something like this:

Yep, WOW Pete. you are really confused and not in the least bit saved at all as far as any Bible reads. It’s a shame for a person like yourself to know scripture so well, only to perish in the end. But I like your piece, you just need to study more. You sound like a really smart person, and I know it took a lot of time and thought to establish this piece. For a person to trash Gods word needs some serious help.

That is quite simply "fundamentalist cow droppings", and it is most unwelcome here.

Pete is not the one who is confused... you are.

Edited by Hexalpa
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hey Pete, did you hear that loud buzzing noise?? perhaps it was Carpenter's saw.....

I do not want to get in to a personal dispute here. Christianity for me is not whether a person is a believer of every word of the Bible but whether one believes in the same Spirit that was and is in Jesus. It is unfortunate, for me that many churches do not teach this distinction.

To chastise me by quoting from a book that professes a perfect law as being given by God and advocates murder of ones fellow human beings is beyond me. I mean how does it express the will of God when one minute it is saying God drowned everyone but Noah and those close and at another point, saying God died that all can be saved. To say we should love and that God is love and then to say anyone who does not follow what you believe is damned to hell, is beyond me.

Confused, I guess I am. That is why I am a liberal.

Edited by Pete
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hey Pete, did you hear that loud buzzing noise?? perhaps it was Carpenter's saw.....

I don't think Pete has anything to worry about. The teeth on that saw are probably as dull as the person seems to be weilding it.

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I don't think Pete has anything to worry about. The teeth on that saw are probably as dull as the person seems to be weilding it.

ok, fawzo, that made me feel guilty..... :shy:

Carpenter, I once, as a small child, agreed with you... however I have less patience with " you're going to hell " talk than i once did.... what you are spouting is dangerous, ignorant, and just plain rude... I disagree with a lot of folks on here, however except for a little dry humor and repetition, I hope I haven't actively disrespected anyone except Dattaswami...... I would have been ok with the statement had it said anything similar to " I believe "....

I would not like to be a reason for you to avoid this forum... and i could actally enjoy what you have to say... but Pete's swell folk too.....

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Carpenter, ...I would not like to be a reason for you to avoid this forum... and i could actally enjoy what you have to say... but Pete's swell folk too.....

I pretty much agree with the sentiment that Brother Sky has just expressed.

We are not trying to drive you away Carpenter, but we are put off by your attempt to judge others. You have no right to say who is or is not "saved". (I don't even believe in the idea of being saved, but if I did, I would say that "only God knows"). Also, lots of us do not believe that the Bible is "the word of God", so citing it to prove a point "might work with some folks", but it doesn't work with me, and it doesn't work with most Liberal Christians...we are far more interested in "what Jesus did and taught" than "what the Bible says".

Edited by Hexalpa
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I pretty much agree with the sentiment that Brother Sky has just expressed.

We are not trying to drive you away Carpenter, but we are put off by your attempt to judge others. You have no right to say who is or is not "saved". (I don't even believe in the idea of being saved, but if I did, I would say that "only God knows"). Also, lots of us do not believe that the Bible is "the word of God", so citing it to prove a point "might work with some folks", but it doesn't work with me, and it doesn't work with most Liberal Christians...we are far more interested in "what Jesus did and taught" than "what the Bible says".

I couldn't agree more.

Carpenter your comment about the Old Gothic print and Roman print have me puzzled? You're not implying God only uses specific fonts are you? I'm a bit confused as to what ORIGINAL Version you are reffering to. Is it older than Codex Sinaiticus? Older than the Gospel of Thomas?

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When at a loss as to which version to apply,

I always rely upon the Corpus Fawzonium.

It's hard to find,

but very insightful! :devil:

Ah, yes, Ive read that in part. Lot of good mushroom recipes too!

As my grandfather used to say: "Utinam logica falsa tuam philosophiam totam suffodiant!"

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Christianity for me is not whether a person is a believer of every word of the Bible but whether one believes in the same Spirit that was and is in Jesus.

If you believe in the same Spirit that was and is in Jesus, is it that same Spirit which convinced you that the bible isn't true? And if the bible is false, how can you trust or believe what is written about the Spirit of Jesus? It seems like circular reasoning to me, with no foundation of belief.
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If you believe in the same Spirit that was and is in Jesus, is it that same Spirit which convinced you that the bible isn't true? And if the bible is false, how can you trust or believe what is written about the Spirit of Jesus? It seems like circular reasoning to me, with no foundation of belief.

As long as you keep seeing the bible as everything then I guess it will for you Dan.

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As long as you keep seeing the bible as everything then I guess it will for you Dan.

The circular argument that causes the issue (IMO) is the one that says the bible is the word of God and we should know that because the bible says it. There are so many books that declare they are the word of God, but does that make it so?

I am sure that you would not expect me to agree with all the other books that say they are the word of God and only want me to agree with the bible, but in essence you have no more going for you than they have (IMO).

Does one have to believe that the bible is an accurate account to learn the lessons of it? I would say no but I guess you would say yes. Hence the debate keeps spinning.

To accuse me by saying I have no belief because of my position is for me an error. I could accuse you that without the book you have no basis for a faith in God, but I do not.

I believe you would like me to say I have no faith because it would allow you to go back to saying that a fundamentalist position is the only one that counts. Sorry Dan, but for me to say that would be a lie and something I guess you would not want me to do so.

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If you believe in the same Spirit that was and is in Jesus, is it that same Spirit which convinced you that the bible isn't true? And if the bible is false, how can you trust or believe what is written about the Spirit of Jesus? It seems like circular reasoning to me, with no foundation of belief.

Imagine for a moment that I am a famous person.

One man reads about me in the magazines, buys two of my Biographies which were written by ghost-writers whom I hired and whom I believed could most accurately capture the essence of who I am. He knows all of my published likes and dislikes, intimate childhood experiences that some tabloids managed to dig up, my birthday, the names of my parents. Maybe everything he reads is true, maybe it isn't, but it entertains him to believe it's so.

Another man has no interest in papers or tabloids. He barely knows who I am when he meets me, but he isn't terribly shocked that my favorite food is no longer Pizza, as his friends tell him was published in Time Magazine. Even once we get married he pays no attention to the press and reads neither of my biographies. But we laugh together. We go for long walks together. We talk to eachother about how we feel about everything. We spend long nights making love and taking comfort in one anothers arms. We raise children. We give one another support. In all the time he is with me he never cross references what I tell him with what's written in my books or the papers to confirm it's accuracy. Why would he need to?

Which man knows me?

Faith is not the willing suspension of disbelief. No prophet ever acted in faith on what he read in a book. He acted on faith according to dreams, to visions, to burning bushes, to inner voices - in virtually every religion around the world this is the testimony. And like reading the tabloids being familiar with these testimonies themselves is not true, direct experiential knowledge of the being.

The books and magazines and T.V documentaries serve as a brief introduction of questionable accuracy to a real person.

Reading a book and insisting upon trusting it's every word as innerrant knowledge of a Being one supposedly believes as real, burying every doubt as lack of faith to be shunned rather than freely and confidently explored in whatever direction it goes for feer of being led astray and losing salvation... that's not faith. That's willing suspension of disbelief.

Edited by Tsukino_Rei
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