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Rev. Dr. Dean Ray

Religion Versus Science

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There is not now, nor will there ever be, anything compatible or reconcilable between religious faiths, their creation stories, and natural science and evolution. All cultures have primary creation myths, along with their accompanying flood stories, sky fathers, etc., which supposedly explain the first stage in what might be called the psychic life of the species. Current creationism and intelligent design proponents simply expound on the Hebrew cultural myths copied from other societies, following many hundreds of years of homeless nomadic wandering, slavery, and war, and written over hundreds of years by biblical scribes.

True freedom of religion, as professed in the U.S. Constitution, by the founders of this country, will only become a reality when Christian-dominated newspapers permit the detailed public discussion of the sources of biblical stories, their controversial scriptures and dogma. Yet newspapers continue to permit critical articles detailing evolution theory by those who believe in creationism and intelligent design, but deny the equal rights to any discussion of the mythology-base scriptures which most modern intelligent and learned people and scientists recognize in the bible. It is disdainful to me that newspapers do not have the courage such as the New York Times which published a comprehensive public discussion of religious issues a few years ago.

Anyone with the desire to study true biblical sources can easily find them in ancient mythical fables originating from Mesopotamia, Babylonia, Syria, Persia, Egypt, Greece, India, and other countries of that region, which predate the bible by hundreds, often thousands, of years. Further knowledge of biblical sources can be readily gleaned from study of exegetical Jewish biblical interpretations from Midrash writings and in the Kabbalah hidden scriptural teachings, Haggadah parable teachings, and Halakha or traditional precepts nor covered in the Mosaic laws.

For anyone who, with common sense, studies and follows the laws of nature and scientific advancements, it is difficult to believe in virgin births, resurrection of the dead, or supernatural-caused miracles, and have faith in the horrible supernatural being of the Old Testament and the man-god portrayed in the New Testament which treats his fearing human creations with disdain and vindictiveness, threatens eternal painful punishment based on his God’s creational failures, and demands prayer from humans in return for human needs, wishes, desires and the forgiveness of insecurities. Human’s sin because of their inherent human characteristic failures, not because of creational failures espoused in the bible. Hopefully, someday, compassionate citizens will fully understand and practice the precepts of secular humanism.

Whether humankind is metaphysically materialistic (matter-based), or idealistic (spiritually-based), remains to be determined far in the future. The Logos of the bible provides no proof. I believe it was the German philosopher Nietzsche who said, “Faith means not wanting to know what is true.”

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Creationism and evolution are two completely different theories, explaining two completely different concepts.

Anyone with common sense understands that.

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There is not now, nor will there ever be, anything compatible or reconcilable between religious faiths, their creation stories, and natural science and evolution.

Are you saying one of them is wrong?

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Are you serious? Your serious arent you? You really have no understanding the scriptures or history do you? Oh well just another person who believes lies and condemns truth, have fun.

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There is not now, nor will there ever be, anything compatible or reconcilable between religious faiths, their creation stories, and natural science and evolution.

Actually, there is, for those of us who find the scientific evidence of evolution compelling yet believe in a universal "guiding hand". And that reconciliation can be best illustrated in a simple question:

How long is one of God's days?

The Biblical story says God created the heavens and the earth on the first day. Perhaps one of God's days measures in the billions of years as man measures time. Frankly, it seems to me to be pretty damn arrogant for us tiny, 3-dimensional humans to tell an infinite God how to tell time.

Whether humankind is metaphysically materialistic (matter-based), or idealistic (spiritually-based), remains to be determined far in the future. The Logos of the bible provides no proof. I believe it was the German philosopher Nietzsche who said, “Faith means not wanting to know what is true.”

Nietzsche was, by and large, a moron.

Nah, I can't say that truthfully, because I avoid Nietzsche (except for the "what doesn't kill me makes me stronger" one - which is largely bunk, anyway, but catchy).

I just wanted to see if you were paying attention. ;)

But I think (actually I know, but don't want to come across as pushy) that humankind is both material and spiritual in nature. And were you to actually touch your spiritual core, your own connection to the infinite that is God, you would understand.

Peace.

Rev.John

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Just throwing in a line from the Book of Job:

"Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?" -God

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Anybody want a third possibility?

Life meets the physical universe and animates some of it to subdue the remainder of the physical universe. End of today's lesson. Good night all.

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There is not now, nor will there ever be, anything compatible or reconcilable between religious faiths, their creation stories, and natural science and evolution. All cultures have primary creation myths, along with their accompanying flood stories, sky fathers, etc., which supposedly explain the first stage in what might be called the psychic life of the species. Current creationism and intelligent design proponents simply expound on the Hebrew cultural myths copied from other societies, following many hundreds of years of homeless nomadic wandering, slavery, and war, and written over hundreds of years by biblical scribes.

True freedom of religion, as professed in the U.S. Constitution, by the founders of this country, will only become a reality when Christian-dominated newspapers permit the detailed public discussion of the sources of biblical stories, their controversial scriptures and dogma. Yet newspapers continue to permit critical articles detailing evolution theory by those who believe in creationism and intelligent design, but deny the equal rights to any discussion of the mythology-base scriptures which most modern intelligent and learned people and scientists recognize in the bible. It is disdainful to me that newspapers do not have the courage such as the New York Times which published a comprehensive public discussion of religious issues a few years ago.

Anyone with the desire to study true biblical sources can easily find them in ancient mythical fables originating from Mesopotamia, Babylonia, Syria, Persia, Egypt, Greece, India, and other countries of that region, which predate the bible by hundreds, often thousands, of years. Further knowledge of biblical sources can be readily gleaned from study of exegetical Jewish biblical interpretations from Midrash writings and in the Kabbalah hidden scriptural teachings, Haggadah parable teachings, and Halakha or traditional precepts nor covered in the Mosaic laws.

For anyone who, with common sense, studies and follows the laws of nature and scientific advancements, it is difficult to believe in virgin births, resurrection of the dead, or supernatural-caused miracles, and have faith in the horrible supernatural being of the Old Testament and the man-god portrayed in the New Testament which treats his fearing human creations with disdain and vindictiveness, threatens eternal painful punishment based on his God’s creational failures, and demands prayer from humans in return for human needs, wishes, desires and the forgiveness of insecurities. Human’s sin because of their inherent human characteristic failures, not because of creational failures espoused in the bible. Hopefully, someday, compassionate citizens will fully understand and practice the precepts of secular humanism.

Whether humankind is metaphysically materialistic (matter-based), or idealistic (spiritually-based), remains to be determined far in the future. The Logos of the bible provides no proof. I believe it was the German philosopher Nietzsche who said, “Faith means not wanting to know what is true.”

~ Interesting.

I may be wrong, but I thought the U.S. Constitution guaranteed the Government would not dictate a religion. Nothing more. No guarantees.

& to the labled topic?

Well, People are curious creative critters that find quite often what they don't expect when seeking what they wonder about...

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There is not now, nor will there ever be, anything compatible or reconcilable between religious faiths, their creation stories, and natural science and evolution. All cultures have primary creation myths, along with their accompanying flood stories, sky fathers, etc., which supposedly explain the first stage in what might be called the psychic life of the species. Current creationism and intelligent design proponents simply expound on the Hebrew cultural myths copied from other societies, following many hundreds of years of homeless nomadic wandering, slavery, and war, and written over hundreds of years by biblical scribes.

True freedom of religion, as professed in the U.S. Constitution, by the founders of this country, will only become a reality when Christian-dominated newspapers permit the detailed public discussion of the sources of biblical stories, their controversial scriptures and dogma. Yet newspapers continue to permit critical articles detailing evolution theory by those who believe in creationism and intelligent design, but deny the equal rights to any discussion of the mythology-base scriptures which most modern intelligent and learned people and scientists recognize in the bible. It is disdainful to me that newspapers do not have the courage such as the New York Times which published a comprehensive public discussion of religious issues a few years ago.

Anyone with the desire to study true biblical sources can easily find them in ancient mythical fables originating from Mesopotamia, Babylonia, Syria, Persia, Egypt, Greece, India, and other countries of that region, which predate the bible by hundreds, often thousands, of years. Further knowledge of biblical sources can be readily gleaned from study of exegetical Jewish biblical interpretations from Midrash writings and in the Kabbalah hidden scriptural teachings, Haggadah parable teachings, and Halakha or traditional precepts nor covered in the Mosaic laws.

For anyone who, with common sense, studies and follows the laws of nature and scientific advancements, it is difficult to believe in virgin births, resurrection of the dead, or supernatural-caused miracles, and have faith in the horrible supernatural being of the Old Testament and the man-god portrayed in the New Testament which treats his fearing human creations with disdain and vindictiveness, threatens eternal painful punishment based on his God’s creational failures, and demands prayer from humans in return for human needs, wishes, desires and the forgiveness of insecurities. Human’s sin because of their inherent human characteristic failures, not because of creational failures espoused in the bible. Hopefully, someday, compassionate citizens will fully understand and practice the precepts of secular humanism.

Whether humankind is metaphysically materialistic (matter-based), or idealistic (spiritually-based), remains to be determined far in the future. The Logos of the bible provides no proof. I believe it was the German philosopher Nietzsche who said, “Faith means not wanting to know what is true.”

Nietzsche sounds a little limited and melancholy, IMO. As to whether we are matter based or spiritually based, I rather think we're both. Because of this, we will always be at odds with ourselves and each other over this issue. But hey...if you find comfort in something, I guess that IS your truth.

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Nietzsche sounds a little limited and melancholy, IMO. As to whether we are matter based or spiritually based, I rather think we're both. Because of this, we will always be at odds with ourselves and each other over this issue. But hey...if you find comfort in something, I guess that IS your truth.

I am not at all at odds with myself.

If you want the answer to that question go to a funeral home and when they bring in a fresh body watch for signs of how it moves around on the table waiting for the service. If the body does move around, you can be pretty sure that there is a spirit there moving it, otherwise it wil lay there just like a side of beef and do nothing.

Since it is the spiritual being that animates the body, perhaps you can learn from that.

Of course that is not what you were told in most schools and churches. They lose control when you find out what you really consist of.

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I have to agree with Rev. John on Nietzsche.

There is nothing in the Bible that contradicts science. You just have to understand what the Bible really is. It's not a nuts-and-bolts textbook, or a series of can't-fail recipes. It is a collection of wonderful, and masterful allegory, with layers upon layers of truth and meaning. There is some history in it, but it is mostly a very deep expression of really great principles.

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I am not a Christian, but I believe in God. I also believe that religion -- all religions -- and science are not contradictory. Religion speaks in the language of allegory with the purpose of awakening our inner life. Science speaks to us about the understanding of our external world and it laws.

I believe that God is an Ocean of Life. I can not isolate God in a test tube, but everytime I study any science I feel that there is a profound intelligence behind the workings of the universe. Lately I have been calling that force or intelligence the Cosmic Milieu inspired by the works of the Jesuit Father Pierre Teilhard de Chardin. (Father Pierre Teilhard de Chardin was both a palaeontologist and a priest, and his Christian faith was strengthened by his science.)

My religion has many myths about creation, about life, about the Gods. I have come to understand that these myths are not simply childish stories, they are trying to teach me about my relationship with the Universe and other sentient beings. Most of the myths and stories have a moral or spiritual lesson.

I enjoy religion and science, and I do not find them to be contradictory. :)

Hermano Luis

Moriviví Hermitage

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Could it be that evolution is just a step in the on going creation of intelligent design ?

Yes it could be, but it doesn't have to be.

I enjoy looking for the weak points in theories and since intelligent design is one I lean towards myself, I have found the occurences of birth defects to be quite unsettling.

If a truely intelligent being designed the system, one would have thought there would be no such things as twins being born connected at the head. One would think an intelligent designer would have set the parameters where only data that was useful for the functioning of the overall program would be generated.

Of course there might be some useful purpose for such mutations and deformities in kids, but in my short sighted limited ignorance I just don't see it.

If anyone could pose some plausible reasonings for such, I would be more than happy to hear them.

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There is not now, nor will there ever be, anything compatible or reconcilable between religious faiths, their creation stories, and natural science and evolution. All cultures have primary creation myths, along with their accompanying flood stories, sky fathers, etc., which supposedly explain the first stage in what might be called the psychic life of the species. Current creationism and intelligent design proponents simply expound on the Hebrew cultural myths copied from other societies, following many hundreds of years of homeless nomadic wandering, slavery, and war, and written over hundreds of years by biblical scribes.

True freedom of religion, as professed in the U.S. Constitution, by the founders of this country, will only become a reality when Christian-dominated newspapers permit the detailed public discussion of the sources of biblical stories, their controversial scriptures and dogma. Yet newspapers continue to permit critical articles detailing evolution theory by those who believe in creationism and intelligent design, but deny the equal rights to any discussion of the mythology-base scriptures which most modern intelligent and learned people and scientists recognize in the bible. It is disdainful to me that newspapers do not have the courage such as the New York Times which published a comprehensive public discussion of religious issues a few years ago.

Anyone with the desire to study true biblical sources can easily find them in ancient mythical fables originating from Mesopotamia, Babylonia, Syria, Persia, Egypt, Greece, India, and other countries of that region, which predate the bible by hundreds, often thousands, of years. Further knowledge of biblical sources can be readily gleaned from study of exegetical Jewish biblical interpretations from Midrash writings and in the Kabbalah hidden scriptural teachings, Haggadah parable teachings, and Halakha or traditional precepts nor covered in the Mosaic laws.

For anyone who, with common sense, studies and follows the laws of nature and scientific advancements, it is difficult to believe in virgin births, resurrection of the dead, or supernatural-caused miracles, and have faith in the horrible supernatural being of the Old Testament and the man-god portrayed in the New Testament which treats his fearing human creations with disdain and vindictiveness, threatens eternal painful punishment based on his God’s creational failures, and demands prayer from humans in return for human needs, wishes, desires and the forgiveness of insecurities. Human’s sin because of their inherent human characteristic failures, not because of creational failures espoused in the bible. Hopefully, someday, compassionate citizens will fully understand and practice the precepts of secular humanism.

Whether humankind is metaphysically materialistic (matter-based), or idealistic (spiritually-based), remains to be determined far in the future. The Logos of the bible provides no proof. I believe it was the German philosopher Nietzsche who said, “Faith means not wanting to know what is true.”

Most Reverend Doctor -- can you change the color of one hair on your head?

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IF you believe the Bible to be literally true in only the face value meaning of each word (as in, a day of creation meaning the 24 and a bit hours of one single revolution of our earth on its axis, even before the earth, or indeed the solar system, came into existence) then you will not be able to accept evolution, or indeed almost any of the physical sciences, as accurate descriptions of the world in which we find ourselves.

Some of the corollaries of that belief are very peculiar indeed, and were well enough rehearsed in the 19th and 20th centuries as to need no reprise here (such as the corollary that God created us as reasoning beings capable of learning and of making judgements, while secretly falsifying all the available evidence we had to work on in order to deliberately mislead us - not an impossible deity to imagine, but an awfully strange deity to worship, IMNSHO).

However, there are many other ways of approaching the Bible, from the straighforwardly atheist one that this is merely a collection of tribal myths amongst others, all the way to the mainstream Christian point of view that it is the direct divine inspiration of God working through metaphor, poetry, parable and all the arts to which the human spirit, perhaps uniquely, responds.

This strikes me as a rather more probable deity - plus, for those of us in the Christian tradition, it appears to be exactly the way in which that bloke Jesus taught his followers - through imagery, simile and parable.

It also has the corollary that God can be trusted in his creation.

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It's my humble opinion that The Creator started the motions of the Universe, but then chose to not actively influence it after the creation. In doing so, The Creator gave us (as humans) the ability to control the universe as we see fit, giving us the gift of true freewill. To me, this connects the idea of intelligent design and evolution.

If a truely intelligent being designed the system, one would have thought there would be no such things as twins being born connected at the head. One would think an intelligent designer would have set the parameters where only data that was useful for the functioning of the overall program would be generated.

Of course there might be some useful purpose for such mutations and deformities in kids, but in my short sighted limited ignorance I just don't see it.

If anyone could pose some plausible reasonings for such, I would be more than happy to hear them.

IMO, the deformities and mutations in the world are, in part, the result of past human error; it's the choices of the people of the past still having an influence on us today. That, and randomness, which is evident throughout our universe.

I think The Creator had to program in randomness in order to allow freewill. If there was too much order in the universe, freewill would be impossible.

This is all assuming you believe in the concept of freewill, of course...

Edited by stillmatt42

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