VonNoble

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Posts posted by VonNoble

  1. I am enjoying reading the shared experiences.

    Since I live in "the Deep South" ...deep in the "Bible Belt" I did have one comical incident.

    It didn't start out that way but it sure ended with thundering laughter.

    Someone with an agenda - apparently in an attempt to discredit me (or ULC) not sure which was the primary target -

    anyway - I was speaking (I had the microphone) when someone started shouting and the only thing that I heard out of

    all the commotion was a question hanging pregnant with promise in the air...

    WHAT BIBLE ARE YOU USING because you are painting with a very broad brush and I want to verify what you

    claim to know by checking my Bible.

    I would love to take credit for being quick-witted but I wasn't.

    The room was absolutely quiet. I paused. Looked over the gathering and said;

    I most commonly use the same one that Jesus used....

    Not a sound. Then lots and lots and lots of laughter....even the heckler ended up grinning.

    So there is a one liner if you get a chance to use it. Sometimes the right things blups out without effort.

    When that doesn't happen - hopefully this thread will grow to be a resource.

    Von

  2. Like many here, I suspect - I didn't know what exactly I would "do" with my ordination

    but that didn't keep me from applying for it.

    I had some vague notions about some day.

    When the first opportunity came to identify myself "as a minister" - I did so hesitantly as

    after all - even I didn't believe that a "legal" fine line made me into my notion of all that a

    "minister" should know or be able to do.

    Over the past ten years I have realized that many of the obstacles to "success" and

    acceptance were obstacles that were largely of my own making. I assumed when I should

    not have....I foisted projections that were not reality.....I feared responses that never came

    and I failed to give others the benefit of the doubt.

    Like everyone at some time or another.

    Even now when people ask (and they do ask) where I received my ordination, where I went

    to the seminary, what degrees I have, by who's authority do I "preach" - and the endless

    questions about denominational affiliation.....I realize they are MOST often nothing more

    than curiosity.

    As my vision has grown, as my wisdom has inched forward....I realize that people are naturally

    curious. It is not necessarily an attack. I do not need to drop to ninja defensive posture every

    time someone makes an inquiry.

    Often if I conduct my response openly - honestly .....I get a chance to explain fully and make

    a new friend.

    So...because this Forum has lots of lookers and frequent new arrivals who are unsure of the

    questions that are about to happen all around them....it seems a good time to review some of

    the most frequently asked questions we receive. And gather some really good responses

    (that are not retorts, debates or at all negative about anything or anyone. )

    Anyone up for it?

    Von

  3. As a "no" denominational church we are asked to provide a wide

    selection of musical hymns and songs (especially at funerals)

    There are two songs that are requested frequently for funerals

    ...How Great Thou Art ...and Amazing Grace.....

    We also have done spiritual retreats and we offer - again - depending on the

    group, a wide sampling of church music (and sometimes not at all church music)

    It is always good to invite the views of others to enrich our own.

    Which hymn (song) do you find to be the most spiritual moving

    (and if the artist makes the song - which artist(s) - are "the best" for that musical selection)

    You choice can be traditional (the most requested variety we have) but maybe something

    new and fresh is good for us to take a look at as well.

    Thanks

    Von

  4. Dianna,

    I didn't hit the "quote" button on this one as my comment is directed at your entire message of both postings.

    Thank you. I have concluded very much the same thing - and did it via the same protocol.

    Bravo to you for both postings. I concur with your conclusions.

    Von

  5. Odd the discussions that come up between ministers.

    In our area - the ministers of all faiths come together every few weeks for a minister's meeting.

    It gives us a chance to get to know one another - share resources and work jointly on community issues.

    Someone raised the topic of length of their worship service (two hours long) as being the "right" amount

    of time a worship service should last as it allows enough time for moving musical interludes (hymns) and

    allows him time to "fully develop" the message. His congregation, he claims, wants their money's worth

    and they don't want it to be shorter in length.

    In our church the service usually last about 40 or 45 minutes which includes three songs and announcements

    at both the beginning and end of the service (longest listening time to someone "just talking" at any one point

    is under 15 minutes)....and that works well for us....

    Now I am curious - what is the "norm" for worship service in terms of time?

    How many hymns are "average"?

    How long would you consider idea if you were attending a worship service?

    Von

  6. I think many Christians feel that if they were to read those other sacred writings "inspired buy the devil" they would be tempted and deceived.

    Their Faith in their belief system is so feeble they don't want to be influenced by other information like even science for an example.

    Hi Fawzo,

    Perhaps your point is indeed the reason. Interestingly enough - it seems there are many religions that have a "fear" of reading anything beyond the scope of their own (and they believe unique) text. As I recollect you have (as have others on this thread) read more than one sacred text....or parts of more than one. Do you find that perhaps that there is not quite as much originality in each as some believe? Particularly those who have only read one?

    For example, there are those who do not realize that there are overlaps between the Bible, Torah and Quran (Koran) for example.

    Over lap of characters and stories in the three documents. There are many faiths including ancient, tribal ones - of virgin births etc.........and overlaps regarding similar creation stories. The Book of Mormon has large tracts of the Bible embedded into it...and the Bible as you know - borrowed much of the old Testament from the Torah - then added a new "rest of the story" - via the New Testament You only can know this for yourself - if you read more than one. And your point re: science is well taken. Some faiths embrace it. Others fear it.

    Perhaps the fear of the devil (or weakness of faith) exists in the ranks of all religions?

    Von

  7. On occasion I do dream in other languages. Once when I was living in Mexico - I was staying with a lovely Mexican family and had a very rare nightmare.

    I awakened the entire family with my enraged battle of whatever demon I was attempting to slay in my sleep...must have been a big one.

    They rushed in fearing for my safety - and flipped on the light - I woke up and found I was illiterate in all languages - which terrified me even more. NOTHING clicked. Not word or gesture for several seconds.

    When my brain finally did activate - the Spanish words finally started to tumble out and we all had a very good laugh. I never had such a moment - before or since. But for a few seconds I had the command of no language.....both a scary and funny happenstance. We refer to it as my complete and total literacy blackout.

    von

  8. It is rather surprising to me that so many who choose to debate and argue over sacred text (any of them) have not READ the document in question. Fully. Or even half of it.

    Fewer still have read more than one and done their own comparison.

    What, if anything, does it say about you if you base your entire life choice and morality on a book you have never read?

    Of those who do read it - often they did not or do not trust their own ability to understand it and rely completely on others to explain the document to them. Initially, that may be necessary - maybe. But does it seem practical to forgo your own reason and ability to expand your knowledge base and never take ownership of the stories and messages for yourself? What, if anything does that reveal about you or the document or your originating teachers?

    It doesn't matter which sacred text we are discussing. Does it seem reasonable that a deity would issue a code than not provide each follower with the key to understand it?

    Just pondering all this.....thank you for any input.

    Von

  9. I have been coming to this Forum (which I value highly) since 2003. I cannot recall ever seeing a single thread debating the merit of the overall message of Jesus.

    Sort of interesting to me that most the thoughts attributed to Christ are not much of an issue.

    Mostly the words seem to be fairly well regarded by all.

    So the majority of the debate between believers and slightly different believers.......between believers and nonbelievers......between the clergy and their congregations...between believers and the government.....between the message and the realities of application of that message lies elsewhere....not in the actual message.

    The greatest commandment (forsaking all other details) is; to love.

    If I as a non-Christian can respect the message as valid for all.... isn't it time at the start of this new year - to put away childish things as it were...and have unification that the vast majority of Christ-beleivers are no different than any other believers. They are trying to get it right. And like all of us - some have off days and some get confused and very few truly want to do anything more than walk their path with beauty?

    Is that an "amen" moment for all? Seems like it would be a good way to start the new year as an inclusive, respectful ULC Forum.

    There is so much wisdom here - what does it hurt to affirm all - especially the group I have noted over ten years to take a few undeserved lumps along the way.

    Von

  10. I became ordained as a minister about a month ago.

    I was guided to the ULC site and upon reading the quote on the front - "Do only that which is right" - and I literally felt like this was the best place for me to be right now and went through the ordination process immediately.

    I kind of forgot about it until I was adding the event to my Facebook timeline the other day and I've been told that it's a bit inappopriate for me to call myself a minister if I am not a Christian. Now, I know I'm treading the line of sounding like I am letting them convince me that doing what I feel is right is actually wrong, but they bring up a good point.

    What does it mean to be a minister? What does it mean to YOU to be a minister? How have you dealt with people who express distaste because they don't think it's appropriate or fair that you have gone on this path?

    Welcome to the FORUM family constantine 319,

    As you have already read - there is a community filled with great diversity here - and also great wisdom.

    People will snicker (a VERY few) when you mention ULC or reveal that your church affirmed your ordination with an on line notification.

    If I might - here are a couple of suggestions. As noted by an earlier poster - there IS an actual church building. This is not a fly-by-night operation. It isn't happening in a dark hallway in a basement with a bank of under-paid phone operators.

    It is a very real church. With a real office and real professional people processing paperwork the same as every other "real" church.

    This church does not REQUIRE that you attend a seminary, although if you feel you need to do that - there is an online seminary with real classes and a real schedule and a real state validated diploma. All the components of a real church exist. They simply do not impose a narrow doctrine. They do not impose an education requirement (by the way some big name mainstream churches operate exactly the same way they simply do not provide the convenience of doing so on line.)

    So when people mock you - it is very likely that they are showing their own ignorance of the facts in this situation.

    It is an opportunity to educate them if you choose to do that. As a new minister you might not be comfortable teaching the snickering types so it is fine if are uncomfortable saying something to them.

    An additional thing to consider is more than a few ULC ministers do also have church buildings and congregations and do have a physical presence in their community.

    There are people who get ordained on a lark or as a joke. That does not diminish the work of ULC at all. That is one person doing a silly thing. Maybe even a disrespectful thing. But one person acting foolishly outside the confines of appropriateness does not at al lessen the validity of your credential.

    Your credential as noted by many is legal in most jurisdictions without any problem or any sense by the legal community that is anything less or different than any other ordination.

    As you have read more than a few of us were ordained through this church because of the belief in doing what is right - (like you) - because of the legal protection or because of an inner yearning to try and be and do more.

    What does it mean to me? It means I took a stand publicly. I can't back off of that position easily now. I have opened myself up to scrutiny from those who have a propensity to judge, opened myself up to be used by those who have a tendency to take, opened myself up to serve even when I am too weary to want to serve and opened myself up to give even when I don't personally care for the individual asking for help.

    It does not make me better or more important than any other human being. NOT EVEN a little bit. I am exactly the same as every other human attempting to be decent and respectful.

    The only thing it means is that I wasn't afraid to go on record as such.

    I am willing to be judged accordingly.

    The decision to publicly state you ARE a minister doesn't end when the certification arrives. It is a decision you will repeat daily - with hundreds of chances to do what is right in very small but significant ways. ULC allows each person to be a better person in the most comfortable and supportive of environments. At a self-directed pace. It is quite unique in the world and quite wonderful.

    Welcome.

    Von

  11. PIck and choose.

    Mix and match.

    Is knowing and not doing

    better or worse than doing and not knowing?

    Is it worse to notice the need and ignore it

    or provide the necessary assistance - but only if you someone ASKS you first

    When faced with a need knowing you have ability to render assistance

    would you tend towards careful consideration of what will happen to you first before you act or does that response fall far short of the example of the Good Samaritan who acted without hesitation believing if I don't/ who will?

    Is it more harmful to hit another with your fist or with your tongue?

    What is the difference between a miracle, Karma and good luck that remarkably beat the odds?

    Is it more desirable to have unquestioning faith, blind tolerance , or unconditional kindness?

    Von

  12. There are many people who are actually in this condition, out of respect for those I cannot agree to entertain such kind of hypothetical conditions, not for some class or any other things.

    Other might disagree and find it an interesting exercise but I do not.

    I hope you understand my position here.

    .

    I have great respect for this position, Hyperreal. In fact, I believe it took some courage to post it in clear tones.

    I have not faced this nor would I begin to know what I would do.

    My father did however face it. He was in his late 80s......I live several states away.

    He had always lived his life prepared for death. He was a decorated Marine (heavily) from WWII, Korean Conflict and Vietnam. Front-line duty each time. Death did not hold any sway over him. Nor did the process of dying.

    From diagnosis to final breath it was 38 days.

    Prior to this, I had buried my mother and my best friend (my best friend when I was in my mid-thirties).

    Each taught me lessons about how to process death. My mother taught me how painful, slow and frustrating the process can be. For all concerned.

    My friend convinced me the medical folks are well intentioned by not really in control of much.

    And my dad taught me how to exiting with powerful strength if that is at all an option.

    He signed himself out of the hospital (of sound mind and then some)...he signed himself into a hospice facility...and when I left one night just after midnight - he called the staff to his room and he signed to do not feed orders. He removed the decision from the children. He planned the funeral service. And he called me to his beside without the others knowing (I flew in and out of the state without them knowing I had been there) - in order to hear everything he wanted to be said at the services. He tasked each of his children with management of a different part of the funeral. He gave each of us a message to deliver to the others when we were in the hearse riding to the cemetery. The eldest was designated to accept the flag once folded. And it was his express wish that not one of us "stand there blubbering - because that is not dignified and it is unnecessary".....we did as he requested. At least till we returned to the privacy of the limo.

    I think after watching him.....I can observe that he kept his daily routine as close to normal as he could physically muster.

    He offered polite conversation till he could not speak. He held our hand when we sang to him...he loved family sing alongs.... or when we read to him.

    On my last flight to see him - I arrived after three days of battling weather related problems keeping me from "making it in time".......and he had not spoken a word in two days.....My siblings had a car waiting at the airport and they whisked me straight away to the hospice facility. The room was that grim kind of quiet.

    I leaned over and called his name...and he opened his eyes.....and said in the faintest whisper - how was your flight (the siblings were stunned he talked!)...and I said fine...and he said; are your arms tired from flying? and he laughed.

    I haven't a clue if I would ever be able to do that. But if I could laugh and make others laugh - I think that would be a pretty great 30 days.

    Von

  13. Hi Von,

    When I first joined this forum (about 5 years ago) yours was a regular voice here.

    I saw your name, and wanted to let you know that "I miss your smiling face"

    (so to speak). Don't be gone so long next time!

    Hex

    Thank you. One of the few times I was taken for an official anything. :crazyeyes: It might well have some of the old timers smiling as i am about the most techno-challenged person to ever land here - so many have had to walk me through (drag me to) the basics of computer operations. And have always done so patiently. So many times.....Edtrain, meredog, most recently Atwater, Dorian (a zillion times), Qryos, and of course Murph (from day one)...my ole buddy Mark45 .....It is nice to be able to have a a chance to catch up a bit. So much wisdom shared in this place. I do miss it when things get pressing elsewhere. I appreciate your kind words.

    Last year I had one couple use my time for over two months and the amount of work I did was many, many hours of computer time and personal resources. The night before the ceremony, I got a rather nasty text message telling me my services were not required. Just a few weeks ago I found out the couple had arranged for another minister all along and the work I did was to negotiate the fee to him way down.

    Blessings,

    NEVER had anything remotely close to that happen. How awful.

    I never heard of asking for a deposit either - but in light of that experience i can see why some would.

    Writing an original ceremony, personalized and within guidelines established by the bride an groom is VERY time consuming.

    That would be a major disappointment - and one I never realized was even possible short of them calling off the wedding.

    Ya learn lots here. Not always happy stuff - but real stuff, that's for sure.

    What you do with it, whether you give it to charity or your local barkeep, is your own business. I wouldn't diminish their contribution by telling them you will give it to charity. In a way that's telling them their offering to you gives you no enjoyment.

    In my view.

    You make a valid point.

    Perhaps the perception hinges on the relationship of those involved, the tact of the ensuing conversation, and the mutual respect of all concerned.

    I don't charge for weddings. It's one of those things where if I'm not willing to do it as a gift I'm not willing to do it.

    And, for some strange reason, I keep adding the words "Mr. Grainger" to the end of the topic title whenever I read it....

    THAT was funny and I do appreciate your wit. I suspect, I'll be chuckling at that for awhile to come. Thanks.

    Von

  14. That was rather silly on thier part Von. If I give organization XYZ money and in turn they do a service or provide me a good, that isnt a donation. I great example is a good number of churches run a daycare and/or before and after school care programs. This is for a fee and generally located within the church or on its grounds. Just because it is run by a church on church grounds does not make the activity tax deductable (as donation to NPO). Childcare is tax deductable under other sections of the tax code.

    I agree with you. Both that it was silly and that doesn't track as do-able with even a little effort to figure it out.

    When I "got to" have my lovely chat with the IRS...they said this type of thing happens all the time (incredible though it may seem.)

    BTW, kudos to the IRS in regards to assistance with lots and lots of questions. I have made numerous calls to their office and they have been exemplary in being helpful and friendly EACH time. They accept the fact I am not an expert by any means and I am calling to make things right or attempt to do so.

    In the example you listed, Dorian......they gave that very example to me over the phone and said someone DID try and deduct child care because the church ran the program.

    When our church was in the process of "filing" our papers - the very helpful person on the phone said; I cannot stress this to you enough....please avoid going into business on church grounds. There are numerous rule changes and pending laws that will effect that venture and if at all possible just don't conduct business on church grounds and for heavens sake don't sell anything there. It muddies the water considerably"

    It has been awhile since that conversation, but I heeded the message and have avoided anything happening for a profit on the church premises. I have no idea what legislation may occur but I did not mind that lady's advise. The accountant tells me we avoid a heap of paperwork keeping our books neat, clean, simple and open.

    Von

  15. I do not see paying taxes as a moral obligation. It is a legal one. It is no more moral to pay them than it is to not pay them. My main impetus to pay taxes is they take them from me. I go out of my way to avoid new tax liabilities.

    Jesus said render unto Caesar, Brutus also had an opinion on what Caesar should get.

    Nice story about the coffee cup though.

    You are absolutely correct. More correctly stated - the morality comes from the honesty bit.

    If you are required, by law, to report something - and choose not to do so - there is a certain smack of dishonesty there, perhaps.

    Morally, honesty or lack there of becomes a related issue.

    Sort of like stopping at a stop sign at 3 AM with no one around.

    It is (as you noted) a legal issue..and s civil one.....is there is a twinge related to your integrity in all that. Are you obliged to adhere to rules which you accept by the very nature of your choosing to reside in an area that has such rules...is there an implied expectation that you agree to those terms? It seems like there might be. If there is - then choosing deliberately to circumvent them seems less moral than abiding by them or openly notifying authorities that you are not going to abide by them?

    Still your posting is absolutely correct (and as always) welcome.

    I would if I had received any money.

    Not yet, Not sure how they would know as I do not claim any of the minister tax write offs. (I don’t own a home, so the standard deduction is better than long form)

    Interesting you would bring that up. I discovered one of the parents....of one of the couples I "married" TURNED IN a deduction for giving me a gift of cash (tucked in a card...and put on the windshield of my car of all places)....giving me the money - they presumed was the same as giving it to a church and thereby a valid tax deduction or so they thought. It is no surprise the IRS did not share their view and it was not an acceptable deduction. But their listing of "me" as the entity from which they were claiming a deduction - certainly drew attention to me.

    Nothing came of that moment in time....but that is I suspect one of several ways your accepting an honorarium might come to the attention of others. People talk.

    Thanks for joining in Dorian. You always add some wisdom.

    Von

  16. It seems a high number of people who become ordained at ULC officiate at weddings (if they use the ordination for any purpose at all.)

    It also seems a fairly high number do a small number of weddings - ordinarily for someone they know.

    And it seems most do so without intent to make money.

    HOWEVER, any money you receive (no matter if you call it an honorarium or a fee) - is taxable as I understand it.

    Every wedding I have officiated since 2004 - any "gift" received has been in cash (I have never one time received a check) - which means reporting that money is really a matter of your personal integrity.

    So you this is a multiple choice thread....you an answer all questions or pick and choose.

    The FORUM is a good place to learn from those who are out there doing.....so whatcha doing?

    DO YOU REPORT THE MONEY YOU RECEIVE FOR YOUR SERVICES? (weddings, funerals....seminars, speaking fees)

    HAVE YOU RECEIVED ENOUGH THAT IT IMPACTED YOUR FINANCIALS?

    HAVE YOU BEEN AUDITED, QUESTIONED BECAUSE OF YOUR ORDINATION IN RELATION TO TAXES?

    HAVE YOU ESTABLISHED A WAY TO HANDLE FUNDS RECEIVED BECAUSE OF YOUR ORDINATION (separate checking account, consulted with an attorney or accountant)? SHOULD YOU?

    You may not have considered this aspect of dabbling with your ordination but in some cases it will take very few weddings to possibly have an impact on your financials. It is not unheard of to receive over $200 to officiate at a wedding. It is not unheard of to have the funeral director accept money on your behalf and give it to you AFTER the funeral and the family left. It is not unheard of to have an unexpected bit of money tucked into a thank you card. One time I was asked to speak at a retreat and at the retreat I stayed long enough to enjoy a meal with the group. Upon leaving, they handed me a wrapped package and told me it was a coffee cup - which it was - but inside the coffee cup there was just over $700 in cash - they had taken up a collection among the group without my knowing about it - stuffed it in a coffee cup and put it in a gift bag. I carried it home and didn't realize till the next day I had received the money.

    So figuring out what you are going to do should you receive money is fairly important, perhaps.

    Even if you do not intend to accept that money as part of your income - if you officiate at anything - you run that risk; it might be a good idea to check on what steps are necessary to handle the unexpected funds once received. It might (likely does) include a paper trail of receiving the money, redirecting it and recording your actions in accordance to standard business practices.

    If any one has experiences that relate to the thread and I didn't ask the exact right question - please be hereby officially encouraged to offer your wisdom and experience. Lots and lot of ULC ministers have come to rely on this FORUM to learn.

    Von

  17. Von- when you post a reply, at the bottom right of the reply box there's two buttons, one says "Post" the other "More Reply Options", click on "more", even if you've started to write, then at the bottom of that reply box you'll have the "Preview" option that will show your To Be Posted response above your edit box.

    Hope that helps.

    Blessings,

    Al

    WELL NOW ....THAT was helpful ...very helpful - THANKS!!!!!

    Even I can manage that.....Your assist is much appreciated.

    Von

  18. It seems to me that most things in life are best understood (at least by me) on a continuum.

    Therefore if I were to look at love it would be by degrees with extremes on either end.

    HATE....dislike intently.....dislike....sort of dislike} {sort of like.....like.....really like a great deal....infatuation.....lust......friendship.....love....obsession

    Now on that continuum you can substitute the words that work for you.....but that big gap in the middle.......that is the fulcrum and hinge of all that energy and emotion.....and it too is a force (to be overcome/welcomed)......so it actually love and hate are NOT opposites - they are the same emotion run through opposite filters. In reality it is the MIDDLE that is the opposite ground.

    HATE.................................INDIFFERENCE........................LOVE

    The opposite of hate is actually indifference

    The opposite of love is also indifference

    Indifference is the only NON-emotional response

    You can welcome the nothingness of indifference.

    You can work to struggle beyond it.

    If I were to transfer that to energy/motion/force it would play out to be Explosive.............neutral/non-reaction...............inert/dead

    or whatever analogy works for you....the vocabulary is not all that important.

    Understanding the mechanism might be.....

    .....In reality - in my view.......passion is less binding than love..........LOVE is less emotionally binding than friendship.....and loyal friendship trumps all.

    If you are exceptionally lucky/fortunate/blessed.........you get to meet up with someone who can move back and forth on the continuum at will....and cover several connecting dots simultaneously. Friend, love, counselor, playmate.....soulmate......it is rare. But it happens. [and with that ...I tip my hat to my much better half...]

    Von

  19. What is your political leaning?

    I'll have to look up what half of these mean.....that is NOT a comment about anyone but me. Wow! I am getting old and out of it.

    Thankful though to be able to say old......so many didn't get to old along the way.....I digress...

    If I believe in equal justice for all, and equal treatment under law,

    does that make me a Liberal or a Conservative?

    I don't know.....I am not that politically astute. I am curious about the use of the word justice. There seems to be some fuzzy thinking on that one. Justice to one person seems to equal revenge to another. Is justice, for example a form of restitution or a punishment? Both? Neither? Something else all together?

    If I believe that everyone should be able to do anything they wish, as long as they do not interfere with the rights of others,

    does that make me a Liberal or a Conservative?

    Who gets to decide when two sides differ on what is their right? Who decides what is interference? If I want to allow my child to die - and I view that as my right - who draws the line in the sand and how does the rule get enforced. Determining the process might help you determine if you are a liberal or a conservative, perhaps.

    If I believe that the government must conduct its financial affairs responsibly and sustainably,

    does that make me a Conservative?

    What is "responsibly" means different things to different people? Certainly MY idea of a household budget is quite different than my neighbors. I do not believe in buying things (other than a house or car) on credit. My neighbor buys a cup of coffee with a credit card. But he seems to be able to manage the payments. He is a lawful citizen as best I can tell. Who determines the universal use of such yardsticks? Strong arm of the law? Legislation? I dunno - but how you feel about that will help determine your leanings. BOTH conservatives and liberals might believe the same thing you do - as do some moderates - but HOW these things are enacted is quite different, no?

    If I believe that we as a society do have some moral obligation to help people who are not abole to help themselves,

    does that make me a Liberal?

    It might. It might also make you a conservative, a socialist, a church or a charity. A really nice person (I am reasonably sure that is true.) They are noble and worthwhile beliefs - but are not precise definitions when used as a generality. Your beliefs are shared by many. Some on opposing sides.

    If I listen to all sides of an debate and try to form opinions based on logic and reasoning,

    does that make me a freak?

    Heck no! It makes you someone I respect and admire. THANK you...seriously - wish we could make that happen a whole lot more often.

    If I can see both advantages and disadvantages to everything we do,

    does that make me indecisive?

    Not at all! It makes you a wise person who thinks things through. And is flexible enough to allow new ideas.....considering each carefully.

    Not having determined an answer yet - is not at all the same thing as avoiding the process.

    I believe in all of these things.

    Thank you for sharing them.

    post script if I messed up the multiple quotes and colors - hopefully a kind hearted moderator will help me - I can't figure out how to preview this thing and I am prone to screwing up such postings so thanks in advance.

    Von

  20. I would like to have a conversation about religious institutions and taxes.

    Do you think churches should start to pay taxes?

    Opinions?

    Yes. Churches should pay taxes. They provide a service. They are paid for the service. They hire and fire staff. They give raises to said staff. They often promote over-paid administrators by the same numbers and criteria as a business (bring in lots of new members and we'll give you a raise for doing so or move you to a juicier or more prestigious assignment) - and on occasion that the preachers is able to up the tithe brought in - it translates to correlating raises of salary. (That is not speculation as in at least two instances I was in a position to know that is a fact.) And after retiring the debt on their initial building - they have excess to invest for years into the future. By passing the need to assist the starving of the world in the here and now. People literally starve while churches amass millions for someday in the future to expand and do good - THEN.

    Since this is a thread about opinion as opposed to law - it is my opinion that far too many churches aspire to influence politics and use church funds one way or another to hammer their agenda home. That agenda is about wielding power and installing their specific dogma as law as opposed to addressing issues of human suffering. And I have no problem with them being taxed right along with every other money making business.

    Churches and charities do many good things. One of the things they do exceedingly well is make money. They have to do that - it is the nature of the beast.

    So the question is how to they use that money. The misuses of the funds even by smaller churches is widespread. As best I understand it - Jesus did not suggest that we build crystal cathedrals to honor his father. And by example - Jesus preached outside - on hillsides etc. A great way to reduce the abuse is to limit the excess funds available. Tightening the budget leads to more careful administration or craftier ways to abuse the funds. I would like to think more carful allocations would happen more often than better scams.

    I see some practicality for an enclosed climate controlled building. I do not see the need for the dollars spent beyond creature comforts. Spirituality can and does happen sans luxury. The world over. In many religions.

    Some of the most profound and inspirational spiritual lessons have grown from the remote, from the depressed, from the diseased and from the very simple and plain.

    But that is just one opinion. I defer to the likelihood that majority rule will probably never see things the way I do. And even if they did - the majority would not likely work to change things. Frequently, I am not in the majority. And I am okay with that.

    Von

  21. I have been hanging around the forum for more than eight years. It is a very, very helpful place as lots of very wise people are willing to share their wisdom. MOST of them non-judgementally.

    Early on there was a question raised about how much to "charge" when officiating at a wedding.

    And the numbers ranged from nothing, to $25 bucks....all the way up over $200

    Each minister naturally must decide for his or her self so there is no right or wrong to this one.

    The more experienced voices when I was a newbie - seemed to fall into a majority (at least those posting at that time) that none of them officiated at weddings as a business. It wasn't a money making deal for them. It largely happened infrequently. It was a great honor to be chosen to officiate. And most often they did so as a gift to the bride and groom.

    On the reverse side (then and now) - there are those who feel if you do not charge - your efforts have little value.....that you are less likely to be taken seriously or afforded the respect owed to your efforts unless there is some obligation on the part of the bride and groom to offer an exchange for services.

    I am curious more than eight years later - what the majority of posters are doing these days.

    Disclosure: I am retired. I do not officiate for the money. I do not need the money. I am very honored to be asked and frankly have so much fun I sometimes feel like I ought to pay them. Even with the discussion that I do not charge for my services in all but two instances......the bride and groom have handed me money and insisted that I accept it....which I accepted ....and told them the money would be forwarded to a charity.

    thx, Von

  22. old_nick: "All things are an argument, in the end. Life is war. We are at war with our very surroundings. Each moment there is other life waiting to fill the niche in which you stand. It's brutal, it's hard, it'd be cruel if nature were a thinking feeling thing. I do believe, though, that we have a moral imperative to use the brain knowledge has given us to find a way to minimize the brutality of life(Human driven intelligent design). But, as long as there are people who waste it on things such as superstition, we'll be stuck in that war. It'd almost be worth deliberately modifying the human brain to be incapable of "religious" experience as it is neurological phenomena and nothing more. "

    While it is a certainty that we have intellect - it does not stand alone. It is encased or surrounded by other features that often demand and receive equal time. Emotions for example can often over-ride intellect. I can reason forever and a day that i do not need to eat so much food. in fact, I am quite certain that science can give me a long list of reasons why I should eat less and drop some weight for my health. There are reasons why people should not over indulge in booze, illegal drugs, mis-use Rx drugs or smoke cigarettes. But intellect alone does not drive our actions. (Star Trek had lots of fund with that notion in the form of the Vulcan character)......

    No matter how much we want our intellect to be in full and complete control - it is not.

    Emotionally we need to feel needed, appreciated and loved.

    If someone needs to believe in a god.....or even just wants to because it gives them comfort - why is it of any harm to me that they do so? How is that a waste? I see gamblers at the casino hanging on to all sorts of lucky charms and I am not offended by the superstition. Why does a belief that is not logical present such an issue and such an emotional response of disgust or even anger? Why is it anyone's business to eliminate that belief. In and of itself (within the confines of that one person) - it harms no one else.

    If the argument is because horrible things were done (or will be done) in the name of religion....were not horrible things also done in the name of science.

    Were not horrible things done in the name of medicine in our not too distant past? Are not horrible things done today in the name of profits? The religion of greed is a bit of a hazard to humanity.

    Why is theology the only "ology" to receive such a measured response? Why is it the entity identified as an enemy combatant?

    Why is "the self" (including that powerful brain) listed as the issue? Who among us has conquered self?

    Life can be a war. If that is your choice. It can also be a gentle float downstream. Much of that is colored by your choices and point of view. There will always be adversity and combatants around you; but you need not view them through lenses of their choosing.

    There is a great deal of positioning as a superior being when we mock those who believe in gods or religion. As if, any of us have risen above that sort of thinking. That is not necessarily true. We may have simply traded one superstition with a dedication or even obsession of another stripe...or perhaps we simply do not have that need any longer but have others of equal potency in our lives. Perhaps we harbor some other toxicity?

    One might better ask oneself - - - If am am so smart why aren't I content? Content to enjoy where I am - who I am and what I have. Contented people rarely are "at war" with their surroundings, no?

    Just a thought.

    Von