VonNoble
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Posts posted by VonNoble
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6 hours ago, Dan56 said:
Its my belief that God forgives those who repent, and He expects us to do likewise; "If thy brother trespass against thee, rebuke him; and if he repent, forgive him" (Luke 17:3). So your assertion that "God chooses forgiveness - always" does not ring true for me. I don't think God forgives non-'believers or the unrepentant, but is quick to forgive the repentant believer. When the malefactor crucified with Christ said that he (the thief) deserved his punishment, Jesus did not disagree with him. Our deeds have consequences, that's why there's a heaven and a hell, God's reward and God's wrath. jmo
Certainly the only disagreement here is between our view, of God's protocol.
(well in my case there is the issue of God's existence but I am setting that aside
for this thread.) You have always afforded me respect as i do to you.
Perhaps it is merely our own filter and experience in life guiding us to conclude as we do.
There is no need for us to reach a consensus.
Your beliefs keep you walking with God to the best of your ability.
Mine keep me working to do and be better as well.
To me it is all good. I understand I am not "forgiven" in your point of view. I am okay with that.
I am also not saved. I am okay with that too.
I respect you cared enough to make sure I was aware of the consequences.
I "get" that is part of your duties as a Christian.
I am not taking offense and appreciate you lived up to your calling.
I hope you did not take offense either.
It is my opinion that God (if there is one) would offer love in degrees we cannot imagine.
God would expect us to do and care for one another no matter how limited our understanding.
And that God would certainly want me to respect your views and allow you to live in accordance
with your understanding. There is room to agree to disagree .....without being ugly.
I fully believe that neither of us represents evil. We have that in common.
Thanks for sharing things faithfully and honestly.
von
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47 minutes ago, mererdog said:
It was. The people who put It together were fairly open about it. The book is a separate and distinct thing from the pieces used to build it. The reasons for making a brick don't tell you the reasons for building a house, eh?
Clever analogy.
Did you ever see the poster where the railroad tracks were built from two directions and
didn't quite match up. Sometimes the workers don't follow the blueprints.
Still you make a good point.
Your analogy works better for some religions rather than others.
The religions that might dampen the analogy are not monotheistic however.
So I guess you have a point re: the brick building. A point I rather enjoyed.
von
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25 minutes ago, mererdog said:
Wouldn't that be the case if you <b>had</b> read it yourself? The whole point of the book is to provide an authority. The whole point of going to an authority is so you don't have to figure things out for yourself. Or am I missing part of the equation?
I am not sure that it was necessarily intended that way.
When I am sitting with tribal members in a tribe in South Dakota...I can see that they can tell the story
of their people back more than seven generations. The oral traditions of their beliefs come forward
in contemporary language. The speaker knows the audience and can emphasis parts of the story (or
play down parts) pending on what the audience needs to hear TODAY that is relevant. The written
and UNALTERABLE word does not allow flexibility.
Specifically to the book can also be offered as a fable or a general guide.
It can be the authority that needs a supplement occasionally as society evolves.
The core beliefs might not shift much but that is not wherein lies the breeding ground of contention.
Additionally, if you do not absorb the lessons through your own though and process you are
destined to learn ONLY WHAT the teacher offers. I am not sure that is what the original writers
intended. Perhaps they intended for each to read and absorb it on their own. They did not start
out with written documents. ALL OF THEM started out with oral traditions.
So the authority thing....may be an unintended by product? Or maybe I just don't know enough.
Observations alone don't tell the whole story either.
von
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It has been a point of curiosity to me for more than (50) years....
so a half century of observation on this point.
Each religion that attaches "a holy book" as THE ANSWER (the
one, true and ONLY answer) - ends up by followers being NOT
being able to agree on the meaning, rules and adherence.
That is JUST my observation. Catholics come in more than one
version (Roman, Orthodox and other).....Jews have a range
from ultra conservative to more "progressive" - as do Muslims,
Buddhists and Hindus.
Another big curiosity is when I ask someone schooling me if
THEY read the book in question - RARELY have they. I mean
it is VERY rare that they have read the book in question. That always
puzzles me. If you haven't read it yourself and come to believe it
on your own....then are you not relying on what someone taught you
rather than what you KNOW to be true by working your way through
it?
Do the religions that branch off from using the holy reference
book or guide book - fair better over time (such as those that
rely on oral tradition instead of a text?)
von
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12 minutes ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:
Just one obvious example for now. In America, we now have "marriage equality." How? Because gay people were wiling to hurt the feelings of bigots. Because they spoke up for themselves. Because they were willing to be "uppity" -- not know their place -- and even, to be rude.
It's a good model for Atheists. The first step is coming out of the closet. The second step is not being afraid to get in the face of bigots.
Thanks for the example. It did clarify some things for me in your position.
However, on the converse side, the first wedding I performed for gay friends we had to travel to
N.H. as it was still a rare occurrence in 2004. That couple had worked very hard to raise
awareness of their situation. They donated money. Send information out to friends regularly.
They paid subscriptions to "gay" magazines and sent it to straight friends. They worked
quietly and non-violently.
One of their most effective tools was inviting neighbors and friends to dinner to see how
very normal and very boring they were. They also brought about the change with dignity
and grace, no?
von
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1 hour ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:
We should not tell bigots that they are bigots? It might put them in a bad mood?
How does that help them or you?
Would they not have to RESPECT you or your opinion in order for your "telling them" to matter?
Why would your opinion of them matter a bit? Unless of course they respected you.
Doesn't that probably require that they sense you respect them?
von
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16 hours ago, mererdog said:
This is why I tried to draw a distinction between respecting someone and treating them with respect. Just as anger is not an excuse for violence, lack of respect is not an excuse to treat people disrespectfully. Although it should go without saying that opinions on what qualifies as disrespectful treatment will vary widely...
Finally! Thanks for your patience. I got it this time around. Agreed.
von
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9 hours ago, Dan56 said:
Respect is earned by our deeds, and if a persons purpose becomes detrimental to everyone around them, we would be foolish to respect them.
Dan56,
I respect your belief. I even share the sentiment at least as a first blush.
However too, in my studying of Christianity over decades, I have often heard
very good Christian people note that they are thankful that God does not treat
them in accordance with what they deserve.
Few of us deserve the riches and blessings bestowed on us.
We all "sin" ....we all fall....we all realize that we did so much less than we should have on
so many occasions.
God is often more merciful than just - at least in my understanding of it.
He often demonstrates mercy and forgiveness quickly.
God chooses forgiveness - always.
If we are to emulate those actions (and most major religions share that view) then do
we not obliged to forgive first, to be the first to offer a hand up, turn the other cheek
or whatever Scriptural reference is appropriate (thanks to any believers who can help
me with that footnoting)...
ARE WE not defined by our response in the face of those who error?
Von
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15 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:
I think it was Mark Twain who said: "Always do the right thing. Your friends will be gratified. Your enemies will be astonished."
Nice one....I had a small postcard with that quote for many years.....very appropriate.
15 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:Civility is important; If only to negotiate a peace treaty. For me, to respect someone, I need to feel at least neutral towards them.
There are some people who should not receive respect. People who make plain that they are racists, or otherwise support persecution. Or the people who support their evil efforts. Respecting evil is not a virtue.
Aren't these two positions, in part, mutually exclusive?
I think you have, perhaps more succinctly, highlighted my muddling.
Evil exists. Some offensive people are not necessarily evil.
They are fearful, uneducated, drunk, or very much in need of attention,
in need of a fix (drugs, power, whatever.)
Without positioning ourselves as willing to understand them (read that as
offering respect even when they are not acting as if they deserve it) - how do we
ever determine which of the many (justifiable and not justifiable) motivations
is in play?
Racism can be learned. Hatred can be cultivated.
Some evil is not carried out by the mastermind.
Some of it is carried out by those who do not yet fully understand their options.
Sometimes they do know their options but are completely ignorant of the ultimate outcome
of those actions. Sometimes people in front of us are responding to
lies, deceit, manipulation, fear mongering. Sometimes they are not as evil
as their actions imply. They are just scared or stupid ....or scared stupid.
Even when dealing WITH evil...how does responding in kind help me?
Withholding communications doesn't seem like a likely win does it?
It isn't always possible to remove oneself from or protect yourself from
evil...sometimes you HAVE TO deal with it.....
von
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15 hours ago, Brother Kaman said:
I do my best to treat everyone respectfuly but that does not mean I respect everyone. When a person comes into my life for the first time, they are at zero on my respect scale. Without fail they will either teach me to respect them or teach me they are a waste of my time. Since I have been retired, it is wonderful to exercise my freedom of association.
Agreed.
It was not until I rounded the corner into my 40s that I realized I did not have to be accessible
to everyone who reached out to me. CERTAINLY, retirement has only helped that choice. So I applaud
you in that regard.
The struggle comes when I am in situations where interaction is NOT optional (socially) (brief) ...everyone has been
in a social setting with clumsy moments. Seated next to an intoxicated guest at a wedding reception, on an airplane
at someone's home, in an elevator. We can avoid contributing or drawing attention to ourselves as much as possible
but at times you are sort of thrown into the spotlight or the conversation and there you are.
A person you would never choose to associate with is in your radar for the next few minutes. There are people
who just rankle us. What I am curious about is not so much that we have to be false Nor do we have to hurtfully
honest in every instance. There are social norms. There are quick exits. And then there is the other option.
Maintaining some degree of respect at least outwardly. For many reasons it seems good to do so.
I can't think of too many reasons not to do so. Your insight is appreciated.
von
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56 minutes ago, RevBogovac said:
'Reputation: It arrives on foot but departs on horseback'
EXCELLENT
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4 hours ago, mererdog said:
I think that respect is a feeling, and talking in terms of how people "should" feel is kinda pointless. The notion that people deserve you to feel a certain way is sort of a weird notion, no? But just as certain acts will make me angry at you, certain acts will make me respect you. "Earned" is a bad way to put it, but its hard to move away from phrasing that common...
re: the notion that people deserve to feel a certain way is sort of weird.....YES....at one level that is absolutely true.
However, along with that enters the notion of expectation. You arrive to every interaction with your bag
of expectations as do they.
At times people are clueless how they are perceived. The more clueless they are - sometimes the higher their
expectation that they are correct, brilliant or on par with you .
At which times YOUR VIEW might clearly not be aligned with that.
They might not do a darn thing to make you respect them - or in fact fuel the fire to make
it difficult to even be anywhere near their toxic self (if it goes extreme in your judgement) - still - where does
your ability to rise above your comfort in the interaction - enter?
If they KNOW they did not earn your respect,
does it reveal as much about you as it does about them?
You may be aware of their expectation that you will respect (or like them) ...they may not get at all
that your feelings run contrary to that expectation.....OR....you may clearly signal to them that
they "got it wrong".....
When interacting with someone I can offer respect because it is the proper response.
I can withhold quietly with a good poker face. Or I can clearly signal they are NOT
respected by me. The choice in reaction is mine.
Which ever way I chose - I am holding the cards. I am also setting the stage for any
future interaction.
My reactions might not have to live up to their expectations.
But probably my reactions should live up to mine.
Which sometimes might allow another to save face, keep them in doubt, or allow them to
remain blissfully ignorant of the cards I am holding. Sometimes
von
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7 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:
Respecting people is a great idea. The truth is, there are a lot of people that I don't respect, for various reasons. No matter how much the truth stinks, it is still truth. It's not in me to pretend respecting others -- when I don't. I also don't love everybody.
....had to chuckle at that...yes, you are right the truth sometimes stink but remains unaltered...
I am not sure that lacking respect is one and the same with faking respect. It could be...but sometimes
not so. I can disagree without being disagreeable. I can withhold respect without losing civility.
Also I can extend respect even when I KNOW the other person knows they are not entitled to it.
It says something about me (it could be fakery) or it could go right back to being the first one
to open the door to better next step....maybe...sometimes.
Still your point is well made.
von
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2 hours ago, mererdog said:
For the sake of further muddying the waters, let me say that I think everyone deserves to be treated with respect even though not everyone deserves to be respected yet.
Ha! As if ...(as if one could make my mind more clouded than I do my own self)
So, am I to understand that everyone deserves it - even though possibly not automatically?
They should earn it? Perhaps I didn't understand that when I read it.
Then again maybe I did. So it goes with a muddled mind.
My mother (if ever there was a saint it was my mom - FOR SURE) - she always said we
are to give respect even when not earned because that person might need it most.
Mom was rarely wrong. (According to her that would be corrected to NEVER wrong) but
she had a sense of humor and would laugh when she said it. )
Just for fun - one time I was indignant as a grades-schooler and telling her that
I had pulled a fast one one someone...and ended with : "I am not as dumb as I look!"
My loving mother replied: You couldn't be !!!
She chuckled for hours at her joke at my expense - it became one of her
favorites to retell. Somehow when it was her telling it - I never minded and laughed
right along with her.
Thx for joining in ...I am still sorting all of this out in my mind.
von
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3 hours ago, Brother Kaman said:
It is hard to give something one does not possess.
Would offering it - help one to cultivate it I wonder? You made an excellent point there!
thx
von
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On 8/31/2017 at 0:29 PM, mark 45 said:
we should be respectful of others,and to treat each other accordingly.
Mark 45,
You got me thinking (as you so often do) (thank you) ....does respect
(and even dignity) begin with our giving it to others.....or giving it to
ourselves FIRST ?
Now that you got me thinking about it I am wondering if our respect for
others is somehow association with our respect of self?
von
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Labels. Perhaps that very issue is what drove a goodly number of us to join ULC.
Even that causes confusion.
Is the UNIVERSAL LIFE (some reference to God who ever was and every will be)......thereby making this
church somehow tied to the notion of God?
OR is UNIVERSAL LIFE a reference to the fact that we reincarnate and our impact upon
mankind moves forward beyond death in some way?
OR was it just a version of trying to come up with a no denominational concept at the time?
Labels are such pesky devils.
I suspect like many - I have toyed with several and never quite find an exact match up.
The other problem for more than one of us - when I do find one that sort of fits we
can't quite affix it. I seem to find (almost as quickly as I settle upon one) - I find all
too quickly, a few other people sharing the label who are far
afield to one side or the other - with the basic beliefs. They quickly put on and
sport the label without a commitment to adhere to the basics (or ever for pity
sake to understand the basics)
Radical extremists seem to be on the bell shaped curve of every label
so it makes it difficult to wanna join in. If you are guilty by association with the dunderheads
you end up spending a bunch of valuable time explaining, apologizing or being frustrated
by the least of your brothers. Time better spent doing good quietly.
It is enjoyable to see the lengths to which creative writers do wordplay to invent
proper labels. I am seeing that the labels we choose are diversifying into numbers
akin to that of snowflakes and fingerprints.
Not having a label is also problematic as it smacks of not winnowing down
beliefs enough to find a common denominator with others. Being label-less too i
s a bit faulty in presentation.
Labels are a convenient starting point, a quick reference tool for us to smell out
those who are alike and different from us. Unfortunately many people never
get beyond them.
Labels can become the yardstick by which others judge your hypocrisy. So they work
to attract and repel people in about equal measure.
Forgive the rambling.....
von
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Rev. Calli,
Ah! working in prisons.....there is a whole different type of ministry!
Thank you for your time invested.
I found often the connect with those in prison was
proposing to them that YOU GOTTA do good to feel good .
..do better to feel better
....at least at that place and time it seemed to provide motivation in that world.
They had heard all the traditional stuff and rejected it so we had to enter
with some sort of new information in order to reach in to them.
Nothing was as strange to me as watching the group handling quiet
meditation and growing because of what THEY came to understand
about themselves.
Hopefully both approaches helped them to believe they deserved respect.
Doesn't everyone? Perhaps we will hear an example that would indicate
that is not a universal requirement. I am always widening my view after
reading postings from others.
thx
von
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2 hours ago, Rev. Calli said:
Greetings to you my brother,
I personally think that our quest to become something greater is a trait that has been placed in us by our creator. Much as a parent wants their children to grow and reach their full potential, I believe that God wants us to grow and become more than we might think ourselves capable of.
To grow though does not necessarily mean that we want to possess more, or gain more in wealth or power. To grow in knowledge, to grow in abilities, to grow in our capacity to love and serve each other, this is the growth I feel God wants of each of us.
In Solidarity,
Rev. Calli
Hello Rev. Calli
It is a very good thing you are here on the Forum.
It seems we are ending up in close to the same location but we (as often we do) ....we take different paths to get there.
Certainly I would agree that we should grow our talents and abilities and share them. I truly believe we are happiest
when we are useful. WE GET far more than we give.
If the formula you outlined works (with God as the impetus) ...I suspect it also works for those who just feel
the benefit of doing it because we feel better our own selves......no external motivation required.
I know you well enough to know you and i both believe people cultivating kindness (for whatever reason)
makes for a better world. As usual we are on the same lake moving our canoes in the same direction
and appreciating the view along the way.
Good to see you again.
von
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Hello RevTom,
I am not sure that the original posit is 100% in accord with my understanding
but I get the drift of the thing (at least I hope I do
)
Sort of seems like necessity is the mother of invention might apply to some
discoveries, no? (maybe a bunch of them anyway)
The reason I questioned our wanting to evolve into more is due to reading
more than a few postings in this Forum where people are trying to devolve;
into less. Less need. Less complication. Less dogma. Less rules.
Less ego.......etc.
YOU ARE CERTAINLY CORRECT in that as we expand we make discoveries,
mostof which we find a way to put to use! Many for our betterment.
Too, the flip side is ironically also true, maybe, by wanting less, needing less,
using less and taking less we care much less about the future and enjoy
the dickens out of this hour and this day. We start to master when is
enough - enough. Very often we have it.
BTW, kudos on including the quark. I am rather smitten with quarks.
von
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Is every human automatically entitled to respect?
Must it be earned?
How is respect lost? Is it ever lost? Is it a constant? An entitlement?
Can we all agree we know it when we see it? Or is that yet one more
intangible in society? Are there guidelines that clearly note respect?
Dignity is the birthright of every human?
Does one give up dignity? Is it taken by force?
Does an individual claim dignity or does the outside world define that for each?
Is it an internal manifestation generated or an outward cloak bestowed?
Does every human posses the intangible of grace to give or award to others?
Is offering grace the same as being gracious?
Does every human have a reserve of grace?
From whence does grace originate? Is it an invisible force or an outward behavior/ trait?
Is it spiritual or behavioral?
Amazing grace saves us or impinges us?
Pick and choose - my mind is muddled this morning
(well even more so than normal)
von
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16 hours ago, mark 45 said:
it's an excellent point to meditate on.
Mark45, good to see you, friend.
Good to see you have kept meditation as a critical part of your path.
Thank you also, for the welcome back
von
16 hours ago, RevTom said:I urge people living with depression to seek the medical help they need, to avoid those who would deny and have you deny the medical context of your illness, and thus enable yourselves to live productive lives with as much happiness as possible.
16 hours ago, RevTom said:I am one of those who battle depression. For the most part I have comes to terms with it, and found solace and comfort through my Christian faith. Peace to all.
RevTom,
I commend you for coming to terms with depression.
It is a most difficult condition to contend with and often misunderstood.
i also commend you for urging those who recognize they need professional help to seek it.
Very good advise.
Lastly, congratulations of finding a path that supports your well self.
edcrain's original posting:
If You are depressed You are living in the past.
If You are anxious You are living in the future.
If You are at peace You are living in the present
...as you likely noted yourself ...it refers to little "d"
depression ...the variety shared by all humans
routinely (not big D.....Depression the very real and
very difficult disease you mentioned)
I suspect either way (routine common depression or
major very real medical condition Depression) - either
group can move forward by reflecting on the overall
message of the posting.
Again, my salute to you for finding a way to cope
with Depression. I applaud you and hope you inspire
others to find a way to cope with it. It is quite awful
to deal with...and I have known a couple of family
members to suffer horribly because of it.
von
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1 hour ago, Dan56 said:
Doing good can also hurt you when you do good.. Doing good is doing the right thing instead of the wrong thing, and sometimes doing good calls for a personal sacrifice, e.g; giving your hard earned money to help the poor, putting yourself in harms way to protect someone else, assuming risk for the sake of others, or even cleaning up a mess that you didn't make. Being good for goodness sake is a positive self-enhancing attribute (for kids), but doing good because its the right thing to do is a testament of ones character. Your not good for goodness sake, but because its the honorable thing to be.. jmo
Before I forget I got the biggest grin reading Exalted Being...excellent.
* I have never ever given that I did not receive in equal measure
....so, just for me, I guess I never view that as a sacrifice
Not just giving money - but giving time, effort, or even of talent (what
limited talents I have to give)...I always find I am enriched in equal
or greater measure
* again, it may be an oddity of my own point of view (heaven only knows
my family has told me often enough that I am odd!) but it is not so much
a betterment of me that might be the push - but the fact i see the worsening
of my self when I don't do good - the growing smaller, less trustful, more
controlling , quicker to judge, quicker to anger, growing arrogance etc.
when I don't do good.
I see your point (and the validity of it) but I guess it seems to filter down to
do good (as you note cuz it might make my character better) but even more
selfishly put.....it makes me hurt less
I appreciate your insight...I'll think on it a bit more
von
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Doing good for goodness sake was what I used to hear as a child.
Is that the real answer?
OR is it more like? You do good because it hurts YOU when you don't
von
respect, dignity and grace
in Philosophy & Theory
Posted
Jonathan H.B. Lobl,
You have noted several times that you are a work in progress AS ARE WE ALL.
It is good to state your beliefs and understanding clearly and firmly.
You demonstrate courage and I applaud that.
To put a fine point on it (I am trying to be brief) - respecting that others do not
see things as I do is not the same thing of agreeing with them.
Perhaps all of us hide behind stuff.
Scriptures are hardly the only "authority item" people hide behind.
Perhaps each of us takes a turn living boldly.
Perhaps there are moments that we have done all we can and there is
just no satisfaction in our efforts. The good news is we live to do better
(read that as do better rather than do battle) .....another day.
Self worth demands we speak our truth.
It does not demand others agree.
When we disagree - how we disagree defines US (not them)
Offering respect seems the best way forward to me.
There are a great many people with whom I disagree.
There are almost none that I do not respect. I often learn the most from those
who do NOT agree with me. When I work to see their point - to understand
what motivates their statements - rarely do I see uncaring dunderheads.
Mostly there is a REASON they are saying what they are saying.
If I work to "get" their reason - I can begin to appreciate the why of it all.
It very often will NOT alter my point of view. But it improves my
understanding of how to proceed in the discussion if the goal is for
both of us to reach the middle of the bridge. We need not go any
farther. Each of arriving at the middle is a victory for both of us.
Thanks for hanging in there with us. I am glad you did and do.
von