VonNoble
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Posts posted by VonNoble
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20 hours ago, LeopardBoy said:
I'm also a fan of Shakespeare's plays. Twelfth Night, Much Ado About Nothing, and the Scottish play are my favorites.
Is there any chance you read or saw Equivocation ( Bill Cain)...?
I am thinking I don't care for it one bit.
Which usually indicates I don't really understand it. I might need some help with it.
Thx
von
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2 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:
"The Tao that can be named is not the eternal Tao.
The Name that can be named is not the eternal Name."
Tao Te Ching by Lao Tzu.
Change is the only constant.
I Ching (Book of Change)
And what of the moment of transference from THIS to THAT....
Pergaps a moment with no name?
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3 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:
The world is awash in bullies and other abusers. Also, fools who mean well, but don't have a clue. I have discovered that giving my power over to others is a mistake. When I was younger, I made that mistake. No more. Sometimes, even I learn from mistakes.
As do I !
Sometimes I didn't realize I made the mistake initially. Sometimes someone
explaibs things to me ... I think about it
and realize ... geesh....I made a mistake!
Somtimes feedback from others helps
me to do better.
Sometimes I learn from others sharing their mistake... which is good ...I don't have time enough to make all the mistakes myself ( old joke)
Hearing feedback is'nt equivalent
of handing over control if you life
well it can be - but I can't view that as
a healthful option in most instances.
Whatever you are doing it is clearly working well for you - you seem to be in a good place
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10 hours ago, Brother Kaman said:
Everything I have ever done, every decision I have made has led me where I am now. I am very happy with my life. I cannot regret anything that has brought me here. You may call me what you will.
You are in a GREAT place. Congrats on that!
I think you are correct. Everything - good/bad - painful/easy - fun/joyous molds us to
the person right here in this moment. So lamenting any of it is unnecessary.
Perhaps the timber of the word "regret" is in play.
I have regret that I didn't catch on faster - but i don't regret any of the experiences that helped
to shape me...is a workable qualifier? It indicates I "do" regret as a catch and release item.
Maybe.
I regret that I didn't have my parents with me longer. They shaped a great deal of my pesona
and they provided a very nonjudgmental sounding board. So I regret that life took them away
too early. I do have regrets. But in that context they are not obstacles to appreciation and
serenity. The regrets sometimes push appreciation up to the rim.
Seeing THEN and missing THAT includes celebration overcoming challenges.
Still. I respect your recognition and mastery of the process.
I often regret I did not seek forgiveness more quickly.
There is zero reason NOT to forgive (at least in my view.)
I live with heaps and heaps of gratitude that others forgive me so easily
and quickly.
I regret the hurt I have inflicted on others. Often unintentional. Often due to inattentiveness
on my part. Not maliciousness. Frequently stupidity. Self absorption. Even if I am
completely RIGHT and justified....if I had just asked more questions, assumed less and
had moved a tiny bit slower...I could have accomplished the very same outcome
more gently and kindly.
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13 hours ago, Songster said:
The more I this about this subject, the more I think that forgiving oneself may be the hardest to do....
Especially when one has "reasoned" his way into committing an act that would be regretted by any individual capable of honest self-analysis....
Yes. Forgiving oneself is extremely difficult at times. I agree.
Honest self-analysis is also often difficult.
Rationalization is FAR easier talking to one's self.
Talking to another might, at times, more effectively because they ask
questions, and too, they might point out inconsistencies.
At times we say one thing, mean something different and lastly all humans
to some extent offer glimmers of contradiction between talk and action.
13 hours ago, Songster said:"The man that says he has lived his life with no regrets, is either a liar or a fool." - Me
Or maybe just struggling. Regrets (and transgressions) (and guilt) (and anger) - are all
items for which release, forgiveness and acceptance ask heavy lifting from our psyche
I suspect.
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2 hours ago, Rev. Calli said:
In my own personal experience, I have come to learn that while I might think I know myself, without hearing from others how they have come to know and understand me, my perception may not always be spot on
In solidarity,
Rev. Calli
Thank you
How do you determine when they have it
right?
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7 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:
In general terms, I have been harshly misunderstood by others. When I must evaluate, I go with my own perceptions.
In religious terms, I have been so badly misunderstood, that I don't care at all what the pious think of me.
Not carrying what others think is fine.
However that that is different than
understanding their input is, at times,
of use. On occasion another
holding a mirror ...spot on center is
revealing.
Often catching the light on us
in angles we cannot reach, maybe
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13 hours ago, mererdog said:
You can't really know yourself, any more than you can know the wind. Nothing about you is permanent. Everything about you has changed, is changing, and will change. The self is a cultivated illusion.
Doesn't ever-changing self
exist fully between the breath in
and the breath out?
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14 hours ago, cuchulain said:
i think many define themselves through the auspices of others. but then others determine your self worth.
Good point. That certainly is one
possible scenario.
Growth arrives with change.
Discovering that our mannerisms
are off-putting, our language ineffective
our presentation counter-productive
... would all be opportunities to pause
and check if that is helpful to us
or ridiculous nonsense
Either way they helped us.
They gave us additional perspectives.
Or they provided validation, no?
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14 hours ago, Brother Kaman said:
We receive feed back from birth to grave. This feedback is as much a part of our environment as the air we breathe. That feedback, along with other environmental influences ( to include family and ethnic histories), give us our sense of who we are as well as our sense of self worth.
BRAVO!
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15 hours ago, mark 45 said:
yes you can,even tho it is difficult to explain.like you say "we are the sum of our choices".is it an accurate picture?maybe.
feed back can be positive or negetive depending on how it's taken,and how it was intended to be presented.how we use it is an entirely different story.
Yes...either of us is the sum of our own choices.... agreed.
At times others have helped me to
see the impact of the choice in ways
i did not anticipate
Their feeback helped me to choose
more wisely, perhaps, the next time
My view of my action -however well
intended-was not necessarily accurate
...it was not the take -away of others
It is not .... very often
It is not about pleasing them
....it is about communicating
and acting more affectively
Is it likely others help me to
better myself, adjust the sails
and course correct?
Learning from others is a choice
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Can you really know yourself
without feedback from others?
Without seeing how others see us...
are we not flat .... missing a dimension
as it were?
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4 hours ago, Pastor Dave said:
I understand what you're saying but I kind of enjoyed having them come over. I got to meet some nice people who were doing their best to follow the teachings of the Bible as they understand them.
As we went through it we found that for the first three or four chapters we were in complete agreement.
How to explain to the wife ... Hi dear, I got you some help with the housework!
First I compliment you on your humor
AND CERTAINLY stand and applaud you AND your visitors for the great exchange of ideas from both sides
If we could clone that...sigh.... it would be a much improved world
BRAVO.... every time we understand better win.
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4 hours ago, Pastor Dave said:
I'm not a psychology person but here is the first article on a google search for me.
And a quick quote from the article.
Thanks much for the article. I appreciate it. In reading it it confirms what I thought I knew.... why it is a good idea for me to forgive someone else. It helps ME to do so. Buddhists liken it to grasping a hot coal. Hanging on to it only burns you.
What I'm less clear about is the need to SEEK forgiveness.
EXAMPLE you KNOW you made a choice to do ( or not do) something.... fully well knowing you were breaking a rule . You were successful in that 1) you got what you wanted to get 2) it doesn't matter if you got what you wanted or not... you bloody well know you just up and broke a rule.... others will trust you less if you don't own up to it
no one knows or is likely to find out.... is there some human drive to confess ? Are we wired to seek forgiveness?
Thx
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Are there any psychology folks among us
who could/would weigh in onnthe value
or need if humans
a) to confess errors
b) hear something akin to comfort
in such circumstances
or .... can perfectly normal folks just
process it and move on without all the
interpersonal connection
I realize it varies ...however there is
probably some " norm" someplace as a
standard as we seem to apply it to figure
out those not meeting the norm
Thx
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On 9/19/2017 at 4:45 PM, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:
You are making this way more complicated than it is.
An Atheist is someone who has one less God than a Monotheist.
An Atheist is Godless. Also, godless.
This goes way beyond "who does not specifically lay claim to a belief in a specific god/God" No. Not lacking a specific god. Lacking all of them. Lacking any of them. Having none at all.
One thing is NOT complicated.
Atheists/atheists are about as easy to group as all other discussions of groups connected with spirituality or lack thereof.
Reading this thread the fact they do not have a god/God has even come into question as a point of agreement.
So what professes to be simple - seems perhaps not to be ....
A side issue would be defining god/God to determine if we accept the definition.
(money is god to some...so are cheeseburgers to others..and lets not omit the Rastafarians)
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On 9/19/2017 at 1:49 PM, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:
I suspect that your father's rules are the rules of the confessional. My foundation is more influenced by Buddhism than Christianity. I am not a Buddhist, but this has been an influence on my thinking.
I am sure that is correct.
My natural curiosity turns to the psychology of it all.
Was the confessional protocol (or whatever is the correct word) - the confessional process
tied to any understanding or reason that there is an actual benefit to humans to admit
to someone (the injured party or some neutral third party) (a counselor) that you screwed
up. Maybe you are NOT sorry you just with you had done - or not done something and
you want to talk it over in a safe place.
A bartender may work for some.
von
PS....i too find many Buddhist teaching/approach have helped my ability to reason things
out more clearly (and certainly more calmly) (that and my parents NOT restricting our
solutions to begin with as they allowed a great deal of freedom spiritually growing up)
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On 9/19/2017 at 11:30 AM, Dan56 said:
Certainly true.... I was not advocating the necessity to lash-out in a violent range whenever a person feels wronged. If someone accidentally steps on your toe, its obviously an over-reaction to have a tantrum and throw a hissy fit.. But I believe 'anger' is a natural reaction when intentional harm is directed your way, e.g; someone steals your car, or burns down your house.
I don't believe God is a neutral third party when one person harms or trespasses against another either. That's like saying that if someone shoots your dog, its between the shooter and your dog., and your unaffected by the incident.. In a scenario where an aggressor creates victims via his harmful and deliberate actions, God promises vengeance. Jesus said; "For I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance" (Matthew 9:13). From a biblical pov, forgiveness requires repentance.
I am curious about this.
God knows if a person repents.
If that is so...then - I ask again - is it necessary to say it out loud to a human?
If God knows...isn't that enough?
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21 minutes ago, mererdog said:
Atheism is an umbrella term. There is no built-in specificity to the word. I really don't get why you keep capitalizing it. Are you talking about a specific person or group that claims the word as a title, rather than the generic descriptor.
...I am beginning to get that I need not capitalize it.
I suspect it is a carry over from a World Religions class I took many years ago.
It was Capitalized as a specific group in that class. So i retained that practice.
But I am realizing that perhaps that class was grouping it differently for the
sake of class instruction.
This has been a good thread to update my thinking.
Thx
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2 minutes ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:
You're right. If there is no anger, there is nothing to release. So much the better. If, on the other hand, we take emotional inventory and discover that we do have anger -- it's like discovering a fly in the soup. We are not obligated to digest it. We can get rid of Anger instead of letting it sicken us.
.gif ":thumbu:")
Agreed. It took awhile (thanks for your patience) but I am getting the point distinguishing between forgiveness
and releasing.
The original posit was aimed at my father's understanding that noting to someone else - out loud - that you have
done wrong (and hearing someone - even if it it was someone completely independent of the events) just hearing
from another human that you were forgiven.....is it necessary. He contended that it was necessary - on a psychological
level. He based that on what he learned at church. Not from anything else.
I am wondering if people agree you NEED to say it and hear SOMEONE validate in the instance of forgiveness.
(On the subject of release - I agree with you...failing to release it IS biologically as well as psychologically harmful to us.
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17 hours ago, mererdog said:
Definition of atheism
1a :a lack of belief or a strong disbelief in the existence of a god or any godsUnder that heading than Agnostics could largely be lumped with Atheists
(which would raise the % of Atheists, no)
Not that it is useful for any purpose but the doubters club is underrepresented a bit.
It would grow as any person who does not specifically lay claim to a belief in a specific
god/God would be default fall into the Atheist numbers. Maybe?
If you are not a member of a god group (lacking belief) then you default to Atheist?
Rather an interesting spin.
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2 minutes ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:
For the sake of making a point, I'm going to indulge in a bit of fantasy.
I have plans to rob a bank, and now I go into the bank to execute those plans. Things go wrong. My plans do not go as I intended. The bank guard gets shot. I take hostages. Some of them die. When the police show up, more hostages die in the confused shooting, and some of the police are injured.
The next day, my lawyer issues a statement on my behalf. I deeply regret my lack of judgement, which was caused by emotional distress. I have repented and God has forgiven me.
None of the injured, or their grieving survivors, wants to hear about my forgiveness from God. It's an insult to everyone. Truly, rubbing salt into the wounds.
Now my point. God is a third party. It is for the injured to forgive. Not the third party. Unless we think that any wrong, done to anyone, is an injury to God. In which case, God is an injured party. This also makes God the representative of the injured, in which case God forgives on their behalf. To be clear, I think this is the worst kind of theological BS.
The need to confess to God is an interesting one. God doesn't already know? If, as you say, the confession is for the sake of the miscreant -- God is the wrong party to ask for forgiveness.
Thank you so much. The fantasy version actually DID help me to get the point.
Good illustration for the purpose. Well played and much appreciated.
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3 hours ago, Dan56 said:
I think that most people, when punched in the face, would not feel joy or happiness, but anger.
Anyone has an option to forgive, but forgiving someone who has done you wrong, and who intends to continue to do you harm, seems foolish to me, even dangerous.
I see the point.
I think it is different than the one I was attempting to make.
Granted there are instances when a person CAN and will feel anger.
I am noting that often the offense is not extreme.
Therefore one can be wronged without feeling anger.
Anger certainly is NOT a requirement for every wrong done to you.
By the way I have been punched in the face, did not feel anger.
So it can happen.
You can be punched accidentally - not everything is a deliberate affront.
It hurt. But I was not damaged. I understood it was not intentional.
It is NOT a perfect world. Accidents happen.
Not every wrong requires a person to rile up.
We must factor in that sometimes people just over-react for a bevy of reasons.
This Forum demonstrates continuously that even when we FEEL an emotional reaction
to an idea we see.....that we fundamentally disagree with - we often choose to try
understanding BEFORE anger as a reaction, no?
So too in real life.
I would venture that hitting back is actually NOT most people's response to getting hit.
What the hell happened... is probably more likely. Most of us are not walking around
doing things we expect to be hit over. I don't think I have ever advocated people
be a doormat or punching bag.
You can choose a range of options, even when angry. You can strike back.
it could be necessary. Most often it would not be. But that is
one option, when necessary. For some revenge is a dish best served cold.
For some - walking away is also an option.
Not every wrong is an extreme, ongoing or even justified.
Some are. Some very much are not.
Understanding is the best first step to determine if you need to
bob, weave or run. ...or pick up a bigger stick to respond.
If you note my comment was in response to this statement:
The person who has been wronged
needs to release anger over the wrong
Which indicated a premise I did not grasp as true.
A person wronged does NOT need to release anger - if they have no anger.
Not every wrong results in anger.
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6 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:
If I have wronged you, it is nothing to be forgiven by God -- unless God is the injured party. How then can God forgive, if you are the injured party?
Thanks for hanging with me on this one.
If you have wronged me (which you have not) ...but if you did
and neither of us are believers in God....then there is really no issue.
Each of us forgives the other because it is the normal flow of keeping our own life in order.
For a God-Believer - some sects, as a matter of doctrine, believe that God DOES
forgive them if and when they ask God to do so. He does not withhold forgiveness, as I
understand it - but grants it upon request.
I sort of am confused by "God" as a supernatural being - ever being the injured party.
There may be a rule for a believer to come and state that the sinner "gets" that they
broke a rule ....but I am confused that God needs to hear it. It is more that the human
needs to say it for the human's benefit. God doesn't need to hear it. The human grows
if he says it.
Or did I take a wrong turn here (I sometimes do) - help me out and run it by me one more time
please and thank you.
von
Apple 8, X....new watch
in Science, Technology & Innovation
Posted
There is zero point in pretending I
even understand remotely the
electronic devises I already have....
1) I am certain the devices can do
way more than I use them to do
2) I am sure I am an easy mark when
I go into any electronics place to buy something... I ask questions but often
feel my head start to spin when sales
people explain it
I have a low dollar Apple wach. After a
decade plus if not needing or wanting a
watch... I was intrigued with the fitness
watch craze. I like it as a reminder- record
type tool. I really like the little reminder gizmo to stop and take a minute to breathe.
i had intended to get a new one as a package deal with the X phone around the end of the year
After looking at reviews online... there seems to be connectivity issues with the new version of the watch ( that I
do not understand) so I am folding the money over and skipping any upgrade.
The one I have now is working fine. There is no need to change that
But my phone is getting old (like me) and more than one place this past year told me I needs new version of it. ( planned obsolescence?) as the guts ( my understanding) although currently- working... are less able to keep up. I am told I need a " smarter" version of my smart phone.
I am reasonably confident the 8 version of the phone will handle all I need to do. I am
Wondering why anyone would want an X version? Am I missing something? Is
there any reason a non-jet setter would have a use for a X? Thx
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