VonNoble
-
Posts
1,392 -
Joined
-
Last visited
Content Type
Profiles
Forums
Calendar
Posts posted by VonNoble
-
-
Pete,
Thank you! Thank you very much for allowing this open dialogue
which in my opinion is a very good thing FOR ALL OF US.
I really, really admire your strength.
von
-
When we instruct a child when is it a lesson and when is it an
imposition of OUR view, OUR way, OUR belief?
When is it teaching and when is it indoctrination? What is the
measuring tool between those?
Some parents in the world - let kids use knives at a early age
because they will remember the lesson if they feel hurt.
Some parents think over-protecting kids goes against the natural
order - the weak and stupid ones are suppose to die.
I am just curious.
How do you know when you are teaching them for their own
sake........and when is it for the parent's sake.....so they become
little conformists? Maybe that is the right way to go. But I
wonder if there is a line that is crossed between lesson and
something not helpful?
Disclosure : I have no biologic kids so I have no dog in the hunt
by way of experience. I have had foster kids but that is not
exactly the same thing...and I only had older kids. By then they
had a whole bag full of lessons I didn't teach them.
von
-
11 hours ago, RevBogovac said:
I, as an "agnostic orthodox christian" - for one, would like to try to "persuade" you back into being that "liberal Christian" again: first let me differentiate between Christianity, the "organisation", which I do not feel a lot (of positivity) for; Christianity the philosophy which I like very much (but you have to be careful to differentiate between the "teachings of Christ" (whereupon a lot of our modern society is based on: equality, democracy, compassion et cetera) and I am quite grateful for (and see the Old Testament and most things "after good Friday" as the previously mentioned "moralising story-books"); and, Christian "society", which - in the end - "we" (here in the "West") are (still!) part of (but I do see changing in the future, somewhere...).
I applaud your being open minded in being any version of agnostic as, of course nothing
can be proved - so that seems reasonable and logical.
You are in good company as Thomas Jefferson agreed with you regarding the teachings of Christ.
The Jeffersonian Bible is ONLY the actual quotes of Christ.
Philosophically, I see very little difference between Christianity and many positive religions.
For example I see a pretty significant overlap between the MESSAGE of Christ and the message of Buddha.
It is a full time job to live up what is asked of any of us to choose on either Buddhist or
Christian as a philosophical way of life. We have ZERO occasion to (or time to) judge others.
I have a full time job cleaning up my own self. We all do.
So what is the point of limiting the affiliation with a label?
(that part I am serious about) - - I have no problem with anyone doing so.
I respect that decision. I just don't understand it.
Thanks in advance if you can help me understand .
You have done well up to now helping me along.
von
-
1 hour ago, mererdog said:
"Note: No group is excluded from posting a reply in any area. Everyone is welcome and encouraged to participate everywhere. Others who do not study the same practice are welcomed to add comments and questions to compare, contrast and learn."
-
9 hours ago, Pete said:
I am sure that is true but if we talk about degrees some peoples position when faced with substantial evidence some of us change our cognative position. Others have their story but I have gone from fundamentalist to liberal Christian to agnostic and if I could see evidence to the contrary I would change all the way back if I could see substanciated evidence that was more than unsubstantiated myth. Whilst others hold their position no matter what.
Bravo. YOU STILL have an open mind! You will go where evidence leads you.
You have done some amazing healing!
von
-
To each - their own. I do respect Dan.
Dan has also made a choice.
He is under no obligation to choose as I do. Or as anyone else chooses.
ULC is the one place we respect differences of belief.
I truly appreciate that many have been hurt, frustrated, angered and way more than annoyed over the years
by pushy, arrogant, demanding, politically active - hard ball driving fundamentalists of more than one religion.
Fanatical at times can be a charitable word. What angers most of us is their inability to offer respect to any
belief different than THEIR CHOICE. It is the lack of giving respect that infuriates. That alone is a lesson
not to go there!
ULC was founded upon tolerance with respect to all.
BTW, Dan - I was not including YOU in the above notation...or any Christian per se.
I realize i am not here for large blocks of time - so I surely may have missed something and will allow
a point to the contrary, if there is one. I have been around for more than a decade - and I cannot recall any
point in time where Dan has been, to me, a nonbeliever - anything but respectful. How can I do less.
LeopardBoy sent me a personal communications more than two years ago - which I printed out and
take up above my desk and I regret I lost the original exact wording in my recent move.
In a nutshell - LeopardBoy nailed it: You get respect because you give it to others.
von
-
On 9/29/2017 at 3:04 PM, Pete said:
I consider myself a agnostic and cognitively I know the biblical god is just rubbish to me. I feel embarrassed by what I am about to say but I find 50+ years of Christian indoctrination hard to shake off. I know you think this is stupid but it is a long term coping mechanism . I feel at odds with my cognative mind and my conditioned thoughts. I know I do not fit into any religious camp any more and I get cross with myself at times knowing my indoctrination is just nonsense. I wonder how others feel. I would be glad to here from other agnostics or atheists.
Pete,
Thanks for opening the door to address feelings and not just beliefs.
I can intellectualize a great many things. I can not always reconcile my feelings to my thinking.
You were told ...more than your earthly life ALL ETERNITY depended on YOU BELIEVING
....even death was not as important as this entire push carried beyond death. It was more important
than life and death! The worst thing you could ever do is NOT BELIEVE! You could murder someone
(which is bad, evil and a sin) but there is a mechanism to still accept you. You are accepted no matter
what you do if you repent. Still today your doubt of faith can be washed away and you can be back in
the club if you just say: I repent. I am sorry. I want back in......
Which is the safety net to make severing the relationship really tough. YOU CAN NEVER get away
because we are here waiting for you to simply knock at the door and it will be opened to you.....
When you consider all THAT - is it any wonder you are angry, hurt, and feeling conflicted about
everything told to you since infancy. Important point: YOU DID NOT HAVE A CHANCE TO CHOOSE.
You did not choose this path...someone else chose it FOR YOU. That is a big deal. It was chosen
FOR YOU and any moment in time that you wondered about it or attempted to come to terms with
the fact it wasn't working for you - - YOU WERE LETTING SOMEONE DOWN. Self doubt pushed at
you over time has made this an incredibly difficult journey.
On the one hand I am sorry it had to be that way. On the other - you gotta see you have done an
amazing thing to undertake the journey!
I have said so often I am thankful my parents DID NOT insist on us waiting till we were older to
choose a path. I have remained thankful daily that my parents were not too pushy about believing
(or not believing much of anything.) Each year of my life I have counted one of the greatest
gifts they gave to us is that they allowed us to go where our natural curiosity took us.
None of us grew up a-moral or unkind. We had a very strong sense of right and wrong. We
were allowed to see the consequence of unkind and immoral and got to choose without any
guilt trips - which life would be best for us. Only as an adult did I come to terms with what a
whale of a prize that was!
You did not blindly go through your entire life without making a choice for yourself.
Once the choice is made, by you - as an adult (which has happened) then I say congratulations.
Whatever steps it took to get to here - - - were necessary to get to here.
You could not be who you are now - in some part - without taking every one of those steps.
Thanks for sharing so openly the mountain you had to climb. And are still
climbing. It makes me respect the effort, the journey and yes too - even the current
struggle.
Observation: Sure seems to me you are getting way more right than you ever got wrong.
And whatever happened in the past - remains in the past. We all had to grow through stuff
to get to where we are now.
The past does NOT define your present other than noting where you started.von
-
On 9/21/2017 at 11:48 PM, VonNoble said:
Can you really know yourself
without feedback from others?
Without seeing how others see us...
are we not flat .... missing a dimension
as it were?
von
Expand....the easiest person to fool
...is yourself
von
-
1
-
-
Your best asset might be your faith, your stubbornness in refusal to die
...your ability to manipulate others....or an amazing sense of humor at just
the right moment (I once defused a very ugly moment with a well placed
joke) (not that I would rely on that for my survival either).
If the systems fail - it may be that you will be in shock - and your best
asset may be some one or something other than you......it is possible.
It can only BE you if you are largely in control. If you are in a system
foreign to you, when things are not at all familiar and the things you
rely on are gone - the scenario changes a bit.
Just worth a bit of a think.
I saw more than a couple shocked people...and had to deal with them.
Under ordinary circumstances I am quite certain they could handle
almost anything. In shocking times. Not so much. For a short
while they were more like their own worst enemy.
Emotions overtake common sense and reason in extreme moments.
And anyone can succumb to becoming irrational, obsessed or
vengeful to name a few At which time they are not always their
own best asset.
When systems fail - it takes surprisingly little for some people to
crack. Even those most sure they would not This is true too of
the cruel loss of loved ones. The more horrible the loss, the
greater the inability to cope/function without some time passing
for some people. They just cease to function. That too can be a
primordial survival mechanism. DOING is not always possible.
Sometimes BEING is as good as it gets.
Again, no real answer. Just continuing to process what in the heck
my own best asset would be....
I want to believe I always can handle myself - if not the situation
around me. I want to believe I can always control MY REACTION
if nothing else. But I fear that is not the truth. I want it to be.
But that doesn't make it so.
I have not yet given into despair. But I have met that enemy and
it lives in every man.
von
-
40 minutes ago, mererdog said:
Are you getting cryptic on us?
ha!
If only I were that clever. I didn't even realize I did that.
I was noting places of interest (and places to avoid) on I-10 for a friend
driving from Lafayette, LA to San Diego mostly along the I-10 corridor.
My apologies to all.
The number was a link to White Sands, Missile Range
which would does have an dooms day echo to it. As a side note that
would be in then "yes" column (The Thing... in Az would be in the
"no" column) as far as recommendations.
Back to the topic at hand.
i appreciate that your best asset is indeed a good one to have!
Not just when systems fail. That might be a good one every day.
von
-
5 hours ago, RevBogovac said:
True, but you asked what the best asset available would be. And that is always one's self...
Fortunately, yes; we are social beings and (most of the time) work well together.
That cooperation, however, still starts with the individual(-s).
Your response was my first thought as well. The more I thought about it - the more I realized .... someone else did for me ....what I could not do for myself.
Example: when we were young, my brother and I got into a silky game in a lake. It was funny right up until he held me under water too long. When he realized I was no longer struggling to get free .... he panicked. No help there. The lifeguard was talking to pretty girls. So my best asset was not me, nor my brother nor the system ( life guard)....It was a sort of fat older lady who was watching us and realized I was a goner....she fished me out.
Similar experience when I was trapped in building in Omaha that partially collapsed after a tornado . I could not do a thing to free myself. The system was overwhelmed. Strangers eventually got me out, I was dependent on them to get me to a point to fend for myself.....all my smarts and fitness were useless.
My first instinct was identical to yours till I started thinking through what was... to calculate what is likely in the future
Now I am abut older and fight things like steps
.... if a system fails in a high rise.... i can say I am self reliant right up till I have to negotiate steps.... I am pretty crafty
but I can easily foresee situations where my little brain understands I need ANYbody willing to help me... to continue to survive.
i don't disagree a bit with your answer. I am really just processing it until it settles for me.
von
67386E295FB8C3A5
-
3 hours ago, Dan56 said:
I agree with Rev Bogovac, when all systems fail, your on your own..
I was in a bad flood once, house was under water.. Government did absolutely nothing except declare it a natural disaster zone, which made me eligible for a low interest loan. No other help or aid was made available.
I can SO relate to this. Sorry that happens WAY too often -thx for adding a real life example
von
-
9 hours ago, RevBogovac said:
I would argue your only asset is -as always - yourself.
Hmmmm....any solution is limited then to the power of one
Seems at times neighbors, friends, kind strangers save as many as save themselves......
i guess that works for all able bodied and fit people
von
-
16 hours ago, mererdog said:
Your sister's take on the subject seems to be innaccurate (as was mine, and thank you for pointing that out to me)
That was an interesting read. And it twi a side benefits I thank you for
1). It flummoxed my sister ( which gave
me a tickle as it is RARE)
2). It gave her something to work on
other than constant worry about our
eldest brother.... we have tried
everything ( and every contact we)
have... still no word following
Hurricane Maria....giving her a mental diversion gave me a break
von
-
17 hours ago, cuchulain said:
1 Corinthians 13 13: And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
So I ask. If the greatest is charity, don't we need to be able to accept charity for charity to work?
Excellent point...
von
-
Like many people - right up until every toehold disappeared,
I was confident in a good many things I have (reluctantly)
come to question.
It is good not to have blind faith.
It is less good to become overly-wary.
Immediately after the Hurricane Katrina situation, I experienced
the full impact (initially) of a complete and utter failure of
the state, local and federal government. That is not a condemnation
- but rather a statement of fact for our area..initially.
Good intentions abound.
YOU KNOW help is on the way.
On-the-way... is useless today (now.)
Help now - is at the end of your arm.
When the system fails - where would you turn?
What is your best asset when systems fail?
von
-
13 minutes ago, mererdog said:
Technically speaking, tithes are the money given by the congregation to support the church.
I happened to be on the phone with my sister when I saw this response.
I may be able to shed some light on the confusion.
According to my sister, who is my go to person for all things of a Jewish nature.
- prior to Christianity the Jewish use of the word tithe was giving to the
congregation.... (or simply to give charity. )
Wikipedia notes, as you said - it is currently used to denote donations to a church
however... it adds it is a fixed amount collected in tax as well to the government.
So both cleared and muddied the water a bit for me.
My sister said that our family used the word as it originated in the Jewish sense
- tithe means to give charity (cash) not to be confused with giving stuff - (different
word.) Since we didn't have a "church" per se (and since half our family is Jewish)
it came to us as an interchangeable word tithe/charity.
So that clears up that mystery. thx
von
-
My parents.... forward thinking people
that they were- taught me to give to others
regularly.
If we made middle class we were on the low end of the cut-off to be sure. I know we qualified for aid some years. My father refused it- but I know we qualified.
My parents insisted we give to others no matter what. If I worked all day for dollar as a kid... only 80 cents of it was mine.
Ten cents went in the " sharing bowl" and ten cents went into a non- opening piggy bank
Recently I was told giving money to a neighboring family on hard times was not " tithing".... tithing must be done through a Church
At home tithing was the sharing bowl.
So if it is done thru a church it is tithing... but if you just help someone on your own it is charity?
Is there a third option?
When I look at the tax codes helping someone directly isn't charity...
von
-
1 hour ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:
Boys (and girls) and their toys.
It's nerd culture.
... true to some extent.
I truly do find I am more consistent with exercise (and need to be) since getting the fitness stuff on the watch.
Different people ard motivated by different things. For me it has helped.
It was a device that allowed me in a solitary situation to have a "workout buddy" .... the buddy program overall has proven to benefit most people.
von
-
5 hours ago, RevBogovac said:
You are absolutely right. Although I personally am inclined to buy the X (for me, as an "consultant/professional" it seems to be the right fit, but) for you it should do everything you need it to do (and more, as you already said).
I don't know if you've got the first or second generation Watch. But if it's the first, and if you like swimming (like me), I'd advice to get a new Watch (as the second and third gen. are water-resistant).
THANK YOU.... I very much appreciate the confirmation.
Yes. I am a life long swimmer and did note the new advantage a water resistant watch. That was one of the things making me consider an upgrade. The connectivity issues bothers me though.
Thanks again - it is a big bit of money so I am trying to be a bit more practical then I might have been years ago
von
-
13 minutes ago, mererdog said:
I'm not sure I understand the question.
I am not sure I have a valid one...
Many years ago a meditation teacher
told me the present time is only between
breaths. We can only know I our current self between the breaths
If that is true-then Self exists in the space between breaths.
von
-
1 hour ago, Rev. Calli said:
Greetings to you my brother,
When it feels right to me. I have just as much capacity to bs myself as anyone. Fortunately, I have been blessed with good and caring friends who, when I need it, help me to see when I am engaging in acts of self-delusion and, gently, help keep me grounded.
In solidarity,
Rev. Calli
You are very fortunate that said friends
are so caring and GENTLE. We need more if that in the world, no?
von
-
Hey move over you two...
Then again that could be a ruse. We might be
clever and wily and sly (NAH! )
von
-
The first benefit concert I remember being aware of us was for Biafra Children.
It was a long time ago (maybe around 1970)
Anyway, are they a good idea?
ANY help is good. I get that. But they do take time to organize (coordination
of schedules etc.) and there are dollars involved to make them happen even if
the "talent" donates their time. There are always costs involved.
I once calculated the money raised at a local church bake sale (I stopped by to
find some homemade goodies) and in the course of discussion I was told how
much they raised the previous year.
I asked how many people donated cakes and pies etc. and took the approximated
answer .....divided it by the $$ raised and figured out if each person who spent
money to bring something had just thrown in $15 they would have raised more.
I have done this over time and often found a donation equivalent to the money
spent to bring things, sell tickets, flip pancakes or sell coupon books - would
have been ahead to just get the darn donation up front.
In light of some issues (over time) with funds donated during crisis actually
getting where they are going...I wonder if the benefit concerts are actually
effective? They raise awareness for sure.
Do they also raise funds FOR THE CAUSE ....effectively?
von
What is the tipping point ? (lessons)
in Interpath Dialogue, Universal Virtues and Values
Posted
Yes. This is what I am seeing as well. Thank you