Brother Kaman

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Posts posted by Brother Kaman

  1. 2 hours ago, VonNoble said:

    I rather enjoyed your support of the beauty and money issues.

     

    Since we had to keep the components universal....we could not come up with any place risk free of environmental issues.... so shelter got put in and taken off the list a couple of times.... your wider view is helpful.   Next class all of the groups will have to merge our lists into one perfect list.     I am sort of wondering what the entire class together voted for.... what did the larger group of 20-something’s decide...

     

    von

    It is a set up from the beginning. Environment is universal. The universe itself is environment. Unfair parameters.

  2. 2 hours ago, cuchulain said:

    By the dictionary, if you are forced, it isn't free will.  Not that you NEVER had free will, but that particular choice is not based on free will.  It helps to understand that concept, I think, that free will is not a permanent state, nor guaranteed.  We may be born with free will, though many were born as slaves and brought up a specific way with specific education so as not to understand that concept as fully as possible.  We may be born with free will, but that does not mean we will keep it.  On the same note, a person who is born a slave(without free will), could gain that free will at a later date through circumstance.

     

    It seems like a lot of people might be putting undue emphasis on the divinity of free will perhaps?  I don't think it's divine, I think it's a natural condition that can change like other natural conditions.

    Nearly every word in use in the English language is found in the dictionary. That has not stopped discussions of the meanings of those words here on the forum.

  3. 1 hour ago, VonNoble said:

    So free will is mental not physical?

    We can think freely but not act freely? 

    von

    From your own example, it is difficult to exercise free will to be in your home when you are tied to a bed in a concentration camp. My free will is always subject to someone else's free will. But we have the free will to make the decisions that we are able to decide. If one was to have a gun to his head and was told to give up their money or die, one still has the free will to exercise any option available to them. Fight, give the money up or take a bullet to the head or any other choice that may present itself.  Choices. We all have choices. The choices are made freely.

  4. 2 hours ago, VonNoble said:

    It seems some of the Jewish women were herded into concentration camps (so free will to survive kicked in enough they  chose not get shot getting on the trains to the camps) (they did not know what they faced or in some cases even that they were going to camps.)  Once they arrived at the camps. ....some of them (a few)  were impregnated solely for the purpose of experimentation.  They were never going to be allowed to carry their "Jew-blood babies) to term. 

     

    These women were raped.....and  once deemed to be pregnant ....some tied into beds - if necessary force fed....and poked and prodded all the way to full term.)  Once these forced to term women went into labor - a fully developed child tried to emerge as nature intended.   A fully developed human might be endowed with free-will.... a biologically an emerging infant is fully human by most definitions - (so there is a  question of free will and would exist at this stage of development)...back to the facts - so here this kid is - finding its way to the air-breathing world. 

     

    One of the many horrors these woman were restrained (physically) - so that the baby could NOT emerge.  It would not and could not be permitted to exit.....ending in the death of both mother and child.  For hours (noted by the doctors watching the experiment) - for hours on occasion -  the mothers struggled against the restraints to force an opening wide enough of the child to emerge.  For hours sometimes the infants struggle to be free of the mother's body.    All observers kept notes.....and watched the two struggling. 

     

    Now there are far fewer instinctive responses  stronger than birthing of a child. Both bodies were physically denied a choice.  Both died fighting for life.    A life not conceived freely.  A life forced into existence.  A life nurtured for months to full development. 

     

    Sometimes people try to die. Try to starve to death.  Try to entice death to them. Try to force a shot to the head. And sometimes they are just forced to live. There is little free will in being FORCED to live.   

     

    We do not allow anyone the right to die - in some cases now.  In some cases in suburbia - we force people to live who freely choose to die. 

    Does free will cease when you are FORCED to live?

     

    In the horror of the concentration camp....did either the mother or the child actually HAVE a choice to select that horrid death? Did they have free will to live?  If you chose torture over death and they do a bit too much water boarding - although you are choosing to live and struggle to breath - did you have free will in choosing death?   Some do...they gulp in the water to end the madness.   But some fight to breath and cannot....and they die trying so hard to exercise their free will to LIVE....the one where they chose a life of torture ....which is clearly choosing life - but alas!  They are killed by an over zealot torture person.  Did they then have free will after all?

    von

    Free will is always there. The physical ability to exercise it may be lacking.

  5. 14 hours ago, cuchulain said:

    since your done with civility im done responding...as per our usual discourses.

    If man is more than just the physical representation of the laws of physics and does indeed have free will, can that free will be turned on and off by adversity, ie slavery or any other unpleasantness?

  6. 52 minutes ago, cuchulain said:

    society limits free will in its nature.  imposing rules on others is a limiting, although most consent to it once they are capable to do so.  those who use force to enslave others usurp that free will.  those who hold slaves that were already slaves also usurp that free will.  

     Making a choice to be enslaved or to die free is a free will decision just as driving within the speed limit to avoid a traffic ticket is a free will decision.

  7. 3 hours ago, cuchulain said:

    free will.  the power of acting without constraint or at one's own discretion.

    constraint.  a limitation.

    discretion.  the freedom to decide what should be done.

    argument ad baculum. argument through force or threat to bring about acceptance of conclusion.

    i dont see a reasonable path to accept a decision based on coercion of a persons free will, because coercion is the opposite of free will, disallowing their freedom to decide what should be done via the fallacy argument ad baculum, or threatening force if a condition(slavery) is not accepted.  

    Do you believe the same if you exercised your free will outside the limits that the society you live in confines you to?

  8. 23 minutes ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

    Where we stand depends on where we sit.  If you want arguments for slavery -- ask a slave owner.  If you want arguments against slavery -- ask a slave.  

     

    If you want to find someone so ignorant, that he has no opinion -- ask an American.  

    Thank you, Jonathan H. B. Lobl. I will do that.

  9. On 1/27/2018 at 5:52 AM, VonNoble said:

    Our first week in Philosophy class we studied Plato's Allegory of the Cave. 

    It is a very quick read online for anyone who wants to preview it.   It can be pondered and dissected

    a good long while (and was in class.)   I am not sure it was worth the effort. 

     

    Prior to reading this story (prisoners chained in a cave have a limited point of view....and on it goes) 

    ...prior to reading it - it was hailed with great fanfare as a genius bit of literature.   The words life-changing

    were used as part of the introduction.  I did NOT AT ALL find it to be life changing.   Nor did I find it to be 

    inspiring or even a good read. 

     

    I wonder if Plato would not have benefitted from adopting the style of Jesus.   Jesus was a good parable maker.   

    Plato seems less effective by comparison.     

     

    Any preference in  your view of Jesus over Plato?  

     

     I reserve the right to amend my views as this class progresses.....I am VERY new to this VERY large subject.  

    These are first blush musings only.....

     

    von

    I have never read Plato's Allegory of the Cave but I have read several paraphrased versions. I had no trouble with my understanding of it. It reiterates that all we know of our world is due to our perceptions of it. If all we perceive are shadows, then our world is one of shadows. I like to refer to it from time to time in order to remind myself that all I know of my world is due to my own perceptions. What my brain tells me is true is often untrue. The brain does not deal with truth. The brain deals with survival.

  10. 4 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

     

     

    I hope this puts things into perspective.  The prisoners of Plato's cave were imprisoned, not by their chains -- but by their inability to perceive true reality.  Their perceptions were limited to "shadow".    The world of surface reality.  

     

    I think this also relates to Agnosticism, without the mysticism.  Agnostics also ask irritating questions.  Things like -- "What is true?" and -- "How do we know, what is true?"  Sound familiar?     :D

    And how much reality do we truly see? We are limited by our ignorance.

  11. 2 hours ago, mererdog said:

    Of course, whether it should or it shouldn't, it is what it is. We often ask for the truth, yet we often punish those who give it to us. We may believe we want the truth, but if we don't know what the truth is, what is it that we really think we want? 

    We don't look for truth. We look for understanding and agreement. Physics is an example. We think we understand how the earth and stars work so we devise formulas and math concepts in order to convince others to agree.

  12. 2 hours ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

     

    There is frequently an exception.  I don't want to say always.  Frequently.  For instance, the speed of light.  The speed of light is an absolute.  Except for quantum entanglement; which Einstein called "spooky action at a distance".

     

    If even the speed of light has an exception -- how many absolutes are there?  Maybe death.  Even then, there might be disagreement.  That time seems to move in only one direction?  Maybe.  Unless it doesn't and we don't know about it.  

    In a binary universe, you are absolutely right.

    • Like 1
  13. 6 hours ago, mererdog said:

    Yet you are not always kind. Putting the hat on the statue was not an act of kindness, for example.

    The value of guilt lies partly in its ability to cause us to rethink. It forces us to look beyond our motivations and at the consequences our actions have on others. Potential rewards can blind us to probable risk, so it is vital to have a mechanism in place that prompts us to focus on the negative side of every equation... Perhaps even moreso when the potential rewards are selfless in nature.

     

    Also, just to be clear, guilt is an inescapable effect of empathy. If you are not a sociopath, guilt has been helping shape your personality since infancy. Looking at the difference between yourself and a sociopath, the influence seems to have been for the better.

    No one is ALWAYS anything.

  14. 49 minutes ago, Key said:

    It has always been easier to place blame rather than accept it. The self is often pampered or guarded according to how we perceive an outcome to either be beneficial or destructive to the ego or physical body.

    That said, choice is to blame, simply because it involves whether or not to cater to the self.

    Cool. Now I cannot be blamed. The choice did it.

    • Like 1
  15. 1 hour ago, VonNoble said:

    First, congrats on making it to 70 years old with a sense of balance intact.

     

    I concur no fear of death.... some flinching on my part... in hopes it is not prolonged and painful death for me....but the actual death part is not an issue.   (Dying the process causes hesitation.... what does or doesn’t happen after the last breath is a non-issue:))

     

    Just curious... does a stronger emergence of humanity mean physically stronger?

    Thx

     

    von

    I would think that physical strength would be part of it.

  16. 2 hours ago, VonNoble said:

     Beyond, "thank you" - I am always at a loss when I receive gifts that are often annoying. I guess "thank you" is all that is required

    but that seems to open the door to them doing this a second time. ...or them standing there 1) waiting to be invited in   2) waiting for a return gift even though most know we don't do that - there is this long awkward moment  3) waiting for me to say more than thank you

     

    I am just at a loss each year how to handle such things.   I am pretty sure I am really bad at it.   

     

    Example:  Someone brought me a lovely EXTREMELY LARGE wreath.  They cut the pine from high in the mountain, bent it over a frame by hand.....added lovely ornaments and hauled it unexpectedly to my home as a gift.   It is hand made - thoughtful and there is no denying they intended it to be a very nice thing.   IN TRUTH......I had to go buy a mister (as I was instructed it needs to be misted) - I had to go buy an over the door hanger (wasn't expecting it) .....It is oversized for our door - very heavy ..It was a very nice thing to do (thankfully I am not allergic to pine)......but it required me to go forth and do some more stuff to enjoy it.   I think the wreath is nice.  I just never wanted such a thing and I am not thrilled by it.......they did go to a lot of work and tried to do a nice thing.   It is not something i would want them to do a second time.    I am clueless how to be decent and not invite more of the same in the future all at the same time.  Thank you seems to be a green light to keep doing stuff.

     

    Example:  knowing I battle with my weight.....big time....with the doctor trying to fix some broken systems that regulate metabolism...and knowing that diabetes is also an issue in this house - last night, someone who also knows the medical issues (she is a nurse) and knows we do not do gift giving for the holidays - brought us an enormous box of very expensive chocolates.    it is a very high quality gift - but I struggle to appreciate any part of the gesture.   Well  more plainly put I did not appreciate it at all.   I said "thank you " as I refused to blow my stack but underneath that, frustration was welling up in me.    NOT a fa la la moment.   

     

    Example:  Someone gave the brat (and I do mean BRAT) next door a puppy.   (I enjoy children and over time we will become friends but currently he is clearly A BRAT)       The family just moved into the house - have not had a chance to unpack most of their boxes and I seriously doubt they wanted a puppy before they got settled in.   The kid runs wild .....throws stones at animals....and is loud and big for his age.....and I don't think a fragile puppy was a great idea.    This "gift" now requires the family to shell out lots more money.....assume a change of schedule to care for a living thing etc.  and they were clearly surprised. They did NOT expect this puppy as a gift.      Iit is NONE of my business thus far.   But if I hear that dog out there crying  in freezing temps which are upon us.....or see it abused it will become my business. 

     

    I know - you know - kindness need not be thing-based.   Frustration with this gift giving mess has baffled me for years.   I don't get it. 

    And because I don't - I am always clumsy handling this time of year. 

     

    I AGREE with you re: the rare moments when you find exactly the right gift is special.    And you KNOW it.  And SEE it. 

    Both people are happy with the exchange.  i don't see that much and surely DO NOT experience it much. 

    I am flummoxed on how to handle the other kind of thing. 

     

    It seems like one big long gripe here - and it might be a vent - but too - I really just do NOT know how to handle it....and it is falling on me this year to be the "front" person far more than usual.    I used to just hide ....and go get everyone a drink. ^_^

    This year I have to be the door opener and greeter....I am very uncomfortable - there must be some secret way to deal with it I never learned.    So all I have is a tacit, "thank you" .....mostly I am not inviting them in and it is just not good.   There more than a week more of this coming at me......:giveup:

     

    von

     

    When someone gives you something, a Christmas gift, a bag of groceries, an ugly painting or anything, anytime of year or for any reasons, the gift becomes your property and you may use it or dispose of it to suit yourself. There should be no angst. A simple thank you should work just fine. If the giver were to ask about it later, you should tell them the truth. Perhaps you regifted, perhaps it had an accident when you tripped and it fell into the trash can. Perhaps you could tell them, "You know, I am diabetic so I gave the box of expensive candy to the brat next door. If they don't ask, don't worry.