Kingfisher

Member
  • Content count

    939
  • Joined

  • Last visited

Posts posted by Kingfisher


  1. I recall one summer morning while visiting close friends, I rose early and walked into the bamboo garden to watch the sunrise and feed the mosquitoes for a couple hours. Not ascetically, but gladly and compassionately. Loving life on its own terms was a very enlightening experience. If asked now about the Nature of God my scripture would be a traditional creative verse:

     

    ... up high in the saddle I belong ...

    ... wild where the horse and the cattle'll roam ...

    ... when the skies and the prairie are steeped in the glowan ...

    ... and the wind blows us all along ... like the tumbling tumbleweeds ...


  2. On 10/7/2017 at 4:44 PM, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

     

     

    If God, the perfect mind, were behind Scripture -- any Scripture -- it would be perfect Scripture.  Any one who read it, would have perfect understanding.  I don't have anything resembling a perfect mind, so I can't imagine how this would be done.  God would know how to do it.

     

    On the other hand, if all Scripture had Human origins, with all the imperfection that implies -- how would the world of religion look?  It would look the way it does.  Divisive, fractious, and chaotic -- with all the nasty bits of the Human mind projected onto God.  

     

    Now a simple look at the claims of Genesis.  God created the "world" -- and the rest of everything -- the entire Universe -- 

    in six days.  Really?  God did the entire  Universe in six days -- and needed Human scribes?  The All Powerful couldn't self publish the perfect Book?  He needed Human scribes?  Better yet.  We couldn't all be born knowing the contents?

     

    And eternal damnation if we believe the wrong Book?

     

    :rolleyes:          :sigh:

     

     

     

    Books are a relatively new method of spreading the gospel, but some of those hearthfire stories go back a million years. Or in the old Hebrew idiom, "forty days and nights". Can you imagine that? The collected wisdom of mankind's journey through the wilderness over those vast aeons, all condensed into such a frail volume as the Bible. We must have been really spooked by that early Holocene flooding to be so determined to establish a more permanent record. How easily all trace of who are, and who were, can be erased from the world... but I digress. I don't reckon you could fit everything of value from our own saga into a book, much less that of the heavens, even if you were to sacrifice all the trees and hides that ever lived in its making, but scripture remains a signpost on a very ancient road. I don't believe in eternal damnation, but I think it's unwise to dismiss it entirely. God may not have written the sign at the zoo either, but it's there for a good reason - if you pet the tigers you're liable to discover temporary damnation right here on Earth. Of course, now the garden is littered with paper trails (and cat memes) going every which way, and humanity has become preoccupied with preparing new homes among the stars, so perhaps the written word isn't as useful as a spiritual message in a bottle as it was once upon a time. Maybe we're ready for a new way of passing on our stories, some technological miracle which may flourish for a while but in it's turn shall also subside. I wouldn't worry about it. Those are just our fairy tales. If you want to read the story God wrote then look up. Or look within. It's all the same.

     

    On 10/29/2017 at 12:08 PM, Dan56 said:

     

    I agree, evolution is not an accident, its a theory of how things evolved into what they are after some primary living cells accidentally came into existence.

     

     

    If life and consciousness, and even elementary particles (according to the math), can spontaneously come into existence, then why not God? It is possible that the grand unified field from which everything arises, and to which everything returns in death, is itself aware and self-actualized. What is so strange about that when we ourselves are infinitely strange? The concept of a divine mover isn't unreasonable, it's merely unproven. Does everything need to be?


  3. On 9/6/2017 at 6:47 AM, mererdog said:

    It was amazing how often plumbers and architects would seem about to come to blows. I only ever worked for the one contractor, and I've never asked anyone with broader experience whether its a common thing. Now I'm curious.

     

    It's a frequent bugbear that appears in every corner of human society -  too many chiefs and not enough Indians.


  4. On 9/1/2017 at 8:40 PM, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

    I thought it might be a fun topic to discuss the different labels.

    Which label do you like? 

     

    I would profess not to care about such ephemeral things, but apparently the rank I've got here is Cherished Friend and I must confess I rather like that one. I've been called worse. :cool:

     

    On 9/3/2017 at 8:59 AM, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:

    I can't stand groups with no sense of humor.  They're no fun at all. 

     

    I was thinking about joining the nihilists, but I didn't see the point. :smoke:


  5. My "church" is Nature. The environments of civilization and human society are merely reflections of concepts we hold in our minds. We manifest those beliefs upon our surroundings and declare them to be reality, and they in turn influence our perception and further bind us to the illusions we have created. As I sit and play my flutes I learn to harmonize with the natural world and lose the desire to impose my will upon it. This sort of meditation can be accomplished anywhere, I just find it simpler and more efficient to distance myself from the the temporal distractions in which we tend to place our hopes and fears. Walking out into the forest is a symbolic gesture of relinquishing those attachments and abandoning expectations of what life "should" be. It cultivates a spirit that asks for nothing and allows itself to simply exist in peace, come rain or shine. It is in that place where I stop seeking for God that the boundaries of self dissolve and I become aware that God was with me all along. For myself, worshipping in the untamed wilds isn't so much about trying to contact some mystical spirit that resides in the universe, but in sweeping away the artificial constructs and internal dialogues which obscure the luminous mind.

    All philosophies are mental fabrications. There has never been a single doctrine by which one could enter the true essence of things.” ~ Nāgārjuna


  6. Relevance of the Debate Polemic

    I didn't leave Methodism because I thought it was wrong, I joined the Franciscans because I saw the middle path and the argument no longer mattered. Just do it.

    [Luke] Therefore, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning

    Everything, you say? ;)

    The debate over initial evidence and subsequence will continue.

    The what now?

    Just kidding, I concur. Monkeys gonna monk.


  7. 114-B_025-142x71.jpgflauta.jpg

    While the end-blown style has its advantages (my favourite being an embouchure suited for whistle accompaniment) the pueblo has been a pretty challenging instrument to play. Bamboo can also be pretty unforgiving, especially in Bb which seems to require insane half/quarter-holing skills to even rasp out a smooth diatonic scale. It's been discouraging at times, so I recently picked up another pair of flutes in D(min/maj). Above, the first is a birch "Kestrel" from High Spirits (Odell Borg), the other is an old Clarke tin whistle. Both have beautiful voices and have been a lot of fun to play. They appealed to my Celtic blood, and since they're pretty compact I figured they'd be better suited for my Appalachian sojourns and the odd sabbat. Just the kick I was looking for to break the funk. I reckon all I need now is a fiddle and a jug of whiskey. And more cowbell.

    Speaking of sabbats, I played for more than an hour tonight with a pack of coyotes - a bright and sorrowful lament of the land. The hills were sparkling with their voices. They stop somewhere nearby for a chorus most nights but this was the first time they approached quite near as they sang/warbled/yipped/howled/barked in a great jubilee. It was their longest performance by far, and it was a rather exciting honour to be accepted like that. I named the boldest one "Private Joker" because he has the most ebullient personality, and he knows what makes the grass grow. Yeah, I'd say it's part of my ministry. Blessed Samhain.

    1690493_10153828487575237_1002520576_a.j

    "Ohh, the wheel in the sky keeps on turnin'..." ~ Journey


  8. But is god(dess?) bigger than the universe?

    If by "bigger" you mean transcendent, I would say yes, even an in infinite multiverse. I believe the whole is greater than the sum of the parts. Whether I take a scientific or metaphysical point of view, whether consciousness is an emergent phenomenon or a fundamental property of the universe, it doesn't seem to make a difference in the result to me.

    This is also my understanding of our relationship with God and am thankful for the limitless opportunities to share in His creation.

    Aye, my gratitude waxes and wanes, but even when the moon is new, so to speak, it is always there. Life is a constant vibration, a magnificent engine, a never-ending journey of growth. Sometimes folks say that the concept of heaven is a crutch for those who are afraid of reality, but I think atheism can also be a crutch. There are no guarantees that the afterlife will be pure and joyous, and it's rather terrifying to consider that it may go on without a God to console us. It is very comforting to contemplate utter oblivion in that scenario. I see that deep shadow of unrelieved and empty agony (I have found a certain truth in pain, that nothing is ever so bad that it can't get worse)... but that likewise is encouraging to me, for even if there is no purpose it still suggests that the only meaning to life is that which I provide... and I can choose to create the bliss that was lacking in it simply by accentuating the positive and embracing that I AM. The deepest pains make room for the greatest joys, for I have also observed the truth that everything is transient. Heaven may not be real, but if there is anything at all, it will be, at least some of the time... and if there is not, the void will take me and I will not care. I cannot foresee any fate that leaves me forever in despair (though it may seem like that at times, hope does spring eternal,) and that speaks to me of a divine nature in all that is. Nothingness no longer seems to have a foothold in the universe. Symmetry has been broken, the scales are unbalanced... and I thank God for that. At least until the old rheumatiz flares up again. Sometimes I wish His creation wasn't quite so limitless. ;)


  9. I probably should have said, "The difference between what is living and what is inorganic is creative free will." to be more clear.

    I get what you're saying, I'm merely postulating that perhaps the "living" distinction between animate/organic and inanimate/inorganic isn't as clear as we like to think it is either.

    At the quantum level, what's the difference between the living and the inorganic? How does one quantify creative free will quantumly?

    I believe that the entire universe is alive, and that it's spirit is that which we call God. I also believe that everything in it also has it's own spirit, both individual and interconnected, though we may not be able to relate to them in any meaningful sense. Even the smallest particle is animate, constantly vibrating. What guides them? Do they have any choice in which way they dart hither and yon? I really can't say. I don't know if I can quantify free will, and I'm not certain that the free will of an electron directly correlates to the understanding we apply to our own lives. I think creativity is more like a continuous field, an infinite source of energy which can be tapped by those in contact with it. I know there's life out there among the stars, I'm just not sure there's life that we would recognize in the traditional sense of the word.


  10. That's not quite how I read it. There is an internal monitor, which is how we are aware of our thought processes, which naturally operates after the fact. That does not mean that the decision was not made by your brain.

    I didn't mean to suggest that the impulses don't also arise in the brain, just the concept of free will isn't as supreme as we like to think it is. It seems we confuse awareness with conscious control. When we make a decision we're not so much influencing the outcome as becoming aware of the sensory input and neuronal activity whose sum is attracting or repelling us in a certain direction. I can become aware of my coffee consumption, but mostly it just winds up in my belly without having made any choice to drink it at all.

    I am opposed to the theory of determinism on purely moral grounds. Determinism not only discounts free will it also discounts freedom and allows the institutionalization of all manner of horrors because that is just the way things are meant to be.

    Determinism is a horrifying thought, if we assume that there is only a material component to our existence. Our comfortable physical reality only accounts for 4% of the universe. It's possible that what we call spirit is really a sense of, and ethereal connection to, the dark matter/energy which constitutes the rest of it, or it could be something independent of both, but either way it seems to behave according to a different set of laws (or at least a different perspective of the ones we understand.) I think it is that component which lies partially detached from the chain of causality.

    We don't want to believe that we have no control, so our ego creates an illusion and we behave as if those were the actual operating conditions. As a result, our external world begins to reflect that path more and the original state less. It becomes the new reality, we manifest our own destiny. We're not so much changing the course of the railroad as creating an entirely new set of tracks, and somehow the train jumps from one set to another, like an electron jumping from one shell to another without ever existing at any point between them. So, we are bound by our fate... but fate is also bound by our free will. In one sense we are liberated, and in another we are just hitch-hikers in our own bodies.

    Not to get too Christian-specific about this, but it reminds me of the Pope's infallibility. What he declares ex cathedra, God will make so. The covenant between us and God means not only that we are all swept up in His plan, but also that we have the power to change the plan (if not completely unencumbered then at least within certain parameters) and He will honor our choices. We have cooperative free will, but we do not have any free will alone. We are co-creators of our own existence. A comforting and awe-inspiring thought, yet frightful in its responsibility. If it is a horror to ponder things that are meant to be, it is more terrifying to ponder what fates might be brought into a realm of infinite possibilities.

    The different between what is alive and what is not alive is creative free will.

    Is it? When I think of the senses I do not possess, both those of animals and the technology which imitates and/or surpasses them, and when I consider all the things that never touch my awareness, I wonder sometimes if I was ever truly alive. Perhaps my condition of death has merely been disguised by an ego which cannot accept reality. And if I am alive, are the stones any less alive simply because they do not possess the same awareness which I have discovered within myself? Do they then also have spirits and free will which simply eludes my ability to comprehend? What sins lie within my arrogant refusal to acknowledge their rights to exist as they are, as I smash them apart to serve my own ends? Do they, and everything else in the universe, not also deserve the same respect I give to trees and birds and men?


  11. Do we create our reality/destiny or are we trudging the path laid out for us by fate.

    I think it's that cooperative middle. We're bound by causality, but through the ego we wrap ourselves in cloaks of free will. Modern studies in neuroscience show that what we perceive as conscious activity actually arises after the impulse is generated. You don't choose to pick up a cup of coffee, you pick up the coffee and then your brain claims the credit. Some say fate guides us, some say we are free, but in a way we exist in both realms simultaneously. If you believe in the gods and live is if there were gods, does it matter if there really are gods? We think the universe runs on simple and certain rules, but reality is pretty freaky.


  12. I tend to think it is a side effect of some very capitalist impulses that are at work in welfare design. For example, it is possible for the poor to get subsidies for rental costs, but not for mortgage costs. This is a system designed to move government money into the hands of those who already own real wealth in property. It appeals to those who think that welfare should be about keeping people afloat, but only barely so, as it doesn't help them get out of the debt traps.

    I agree that this is part of the problem. There's isn't any system of government which can't be twisted to suit the desires of those who seek to abuse it. Capitalism enshrines greed and self-interest without placing any ethical checks on power, which is why Adams commented that our system was wholly inadequate for the government of immoral and irreligious people. There are those who witness the decay of society and think our system of government must then be changed, and those who think it should be addressed by restoring the character of the people. I tend to favor the latter approach (though the effort often seems to be impossibly difficult) because in centralized systems with heavy government influence ultimately the means of production are still controlled by the same corrupt aristocracy. Socialism addresses the symptoms of the problem while the disease runs unchecked. It whitewashes the issues a with pretty and noble façade, but the nation still rots from within. Government can't provide welfare for soul, and mandating certain behavior doesn't magically imbue the people with the spirit which would have inspired that behavior spontaneously. You're trying to feed the peasants, I'm trying to tear down the Bastille so that the peasants might feed themselves.


  13. let's talk about corporate welfare. same, different, irrelevant?

    Corporations are people too, my friend. They'll take the easiest road and make use of whatever resources are available. I don't fault anyone (be they people or groups of people) for taking advantage of the system, whatever their reasons may be. It's just human nature to seek the path of least resistance. I merely disagree with some folks about how much assistance that system should provide. I don't really see a difference between corporate and private subsidies, both foster that sense of entitlement and sap motivation to put forth any real effort of our own. It not only hurts those who receive it and don't need it, it hurts those who could be providing it for those who do. Why reach out and care for my neighbors who are truly unable to fend for themselves? That's why I pay taxes. Why get off my tail and support that struggling corporation which is providing what I think society needs? That's why I pay taxes.

    Here is an article I ran across the other day, and one quote struck me as very relevant to this discussion: "We think it is ugly too but if the leaders don’t ask us to change it, what are we supposed to do?” They're completely paralyzed, even when they know something needs to be changed. This is the kind of thing folks mean when they warn about the dangers of dependence on government. If you think ordering those who don't care to fix the problem for you is the answer, well, this is result you get. If you're waiting for someone else to step up and do what needs to be done, the world is going to remain a stagnant and inefficient mess. The problem isn't that we're not throwing enough money and government programs at the needy, the problem is that nobody gives a damn. If you think you can solve that issue with taxes, feel free to illuminate me. This ministry stuff is a real chore and I'd be happy to take the easy road. ;)


  14. I've seen all types of recipients in every welfare office I've ever been in. All the examples provided are true. What I have also seen is a lot of frustrated social workers who know the difference between those who are really trying hard and need more help and those who are just playing the system, but they can't do anything because their hands have been tied with red tape by ideologues from both sides. The larger a bureaucracy grows the less efficiently it can do the job it was designed to do and the more it becomes about blindly following orders and covering your own tail. I hear a lot of people who say they want to make a difference for the poor, but for most it's easier to vote for a distant politician and pat themselves on the back instead of getting involved locally to address the unique needs and difficulties in their own neighborhoods. There is no one-size-fits all solution, and stereotypes only serve the interests of those whose golden parachutes ensure that they will never have to depend upon the quagmire of impotence they've created.


  15. We're spending over $400,000,000,000 (that's billion) a year in taxes to cover the interest on the national debt. Over the next decade the CBO predicts that figure to double. That's 1/7 of federal revenue which doesn't go to improve infrastructure, or provide for defense, or help the poor. That's over a thousand dollars a year from every man, woman and child which goes straight into the pockets of global banksters who are all too eager to loan us even more to pay for the things we can't afford because we're throwing our hard-earned wealth out the window. In a couple years that expense will be more than the entire (federal, state and local) welfare budget, and is on a rapid track to surpass even our enormous military spending. And we're too busy fighting each other, too wrapped up in the partisan drama to pay attention to the vampires who are bleeding us dry. How can we even begin to discuss which direction to sail this ship until we patch the rift that's dragging us all down to Davy Jones' locker? Thank God for freedom of religion, because at this rate the only thing our grandchildren will be able to afford is a prayer.