Kingfisher

I've got a mid-thoracic injury that does the same thing. I never tried Glucosamine/Chondroitin, but it seemed to work really well for our dog during his last few years. The odd cure works well for the inflammation, but does little for the deep joint/nerve pain. There's a lot to be said for the power of touch and positive thinking. I found it helps to have something pleasurable on which to focus the mind when things get really bad. We can achieve an often surprising degree of control over our brain's ability to guide chemical production, and it beats the zombification that tags along with opiates. Sorry you're hurting. {hugs}

"How great a gladness do you think the beauty of the flowers brought to his mind when he saw the shape of their beauty and perceived the odor of their sweetness? ...When he found an abundance of flowers, he preached to them and invited them to praise the Lord as though they were endowed with reason. In the same way he exhorted with the sincerest purity cornfields and vineyards, stones and forests and all the beautiful things of the fields, fountains of water and the green things of the gardens, earth and fire, air and wind, to love God and serve him willingly. Finally, he called all creatures brother, and in a most extraordinary manner never experienced by others, he discerned the hidden things of nature with his sensitive heart, as one who had already escaped into the freedom of the glory of the sons of God." ~ The First Life of St. Francis

Nietzsche! However, I was thinking of the inverse argument. I just hadn't realized there was a name for it now.. Lima Syndrome. The point is that God isn't a bad Dude, He just spent too much time hanging around us nutters. Poor God.

This is a curious assumption. I know the scripture, but it remains an illogical conclusion. Is it not possible that God will raise whomever He pleases? Or did you miss that message in Job? Stockholm Syndrome?

Yes yes, murdering people for having different beliefs is a great idea. Always smart to put it at the top of the list. Oh, I like that.. putting it in the form of a direct order is a nice touch. That means we get to take this literally too, right? Woohoo!! There will be blood!!! Don't worry, once you get comfortable with killing your own family the rest of 'em will be a piece of cake. Hmm, tell that to King James. :lol: "The cake is a lie"

The Liberals say "Give us more healthcare, so we can have decent lives." The Conservatives say "Be more responsible, and you will have decent lives." The Conservatives say "Give us more oil, so we can have decent lives." The Liberals say "Be more responsible, and you will have decent lives." In the end we compromise. This is a great solution. We all get to give a little, blame other people for not giving enough, and nobody has to be responsible. Yay, it's the Party system!! How's that been working for ya?

Now let us contemplate the Mystery of Faith. From liberal Christianity it's only a short hop to Universalism. Once you look past your own version at God, you wonder if all religions offer the same Spiritual revelations, if you just read between the lines. This is naturally more evidence for the conservative Christians (or conservative anyone) to oppose liberalism. Anything that leads away from the Word, right? Well, here's the Truth as I've seen it in my life. I was raised Roman Catholic from birth.. baptism, Sunday school, endless aching Mass, the whole nine. I believed I was Christian, faithfully recited the Nicene Creed on my rosary, and the Church confirmed me a True Christian. When I lost faith, I was a misguided but hopefully salvageable Christian. The Methodists said this crisis of faith was OK, I was still a Christian as long as I behaved according to the Word. God loves me. My faith doesn't matter. However, I shouldn't forget that while I was raised Catholic by my Mother; my Father, and his Father, and his Fathers Fathers' back through history... were all Hebrew. I had a couple Jewish friends as a child, but the heritage and culture were not yet a part of my life (thanks, Abba!) If Jesus was not Christ, then even if I walked in the Word, or believed in Christ with all my soul, I could not literally be called a Christian. I was still a Jew, albeit one who was lost in the desert. The Word is in my heart and blood. My faith doesn't matter. Later, after much sorrow, I denied God and chose Atheism. Zen Buddhism was a natural fit. The teachings were wise, and led me out of the pain. There is divinity in us all and everything around us, and the existence of God doesn't matter. My faith doesn't matter. My Science tells me the existence of God is unknown, and perhaps unknowable. I must choose my way with what information I have available to me now. The more information I have, the better I'll be able to respond to the world around me, but my faith doesn't matter. If Christ is King, then I am a Christian. If He was not God's Son, I am a Jew. If Allah has accepted my Shahadah, I am a Muslim. If there is no God, I am a Buddha. I cannot change those things, but the Truth of them changes what I am called. The Word was written by God. None can change It but God. My faith doesn't matter. If I believe that my way is the only way, some say my soul will burn. If I believe that my way is not the only way, some say my soul will burn. No matter my choice I am arrogantly damned by some men or others, though none have power over my soul. Of course, there is no such thing as the Inquisition, and speaking against that truth will have me branded a heretic by the Inquisition. Therefore, I reject the logical snares. I defeat them not with logic, but burn them away with the fire of Passion. I love them ALL with ALL my heart, and only GOD can judge the Truth of what is in MY heart. Only God has the authority to dictate my course or command the rules I must follow. The fate of my Soul is a Great Mystery, and only the Creator can determine if my actions will destroy me or save me. My faith doesn't matter. So, now I am here, testifying that I am who I am. It was created of Faith between I and I, and remains there. You can view me through whatever lens you wish, and your perspective will not change that. You can label me whatever you want, but you can not change that. Your faith does not matter. It's Her Faith in Us ALL that matters. With respect, yo. Love, ~US~ P.S. Now do you understand?

Sort of, the Catholic Church just lumps them all into a split/unified Trinity. Taking Jesus' divinity out still leaves room to believe in the Holy Spirit of God. I'd hardly say that "most" liberal Christians deny the divinity of Jesus, but it is one aspect. Let me adjust your statement to reflect this. (replaced physical evidence) Of course, literal inerrancy is just another facet that may or may not define a liberal Christian. I'd probably boil the schism down by saying that, no matter what tenets they adhere to, a conservative Christian believes there is only one way to interpret the Bible, where liberals acknowledge (or affirm) that there may be more than one. I dug up a non-partisan analysis that may help. Here’s to the idea that we’ll all eventually end up in exactly the same place. “A new consciousness is developing which sees the earth as a single organism, and recognizes that an organism at war with itself, is doomed. We are one planet.” - Carl Sagan

Do you understand now?

What kind of fundamentalist are you, coming at me with coherent logic like that?! Now we're back to the Word coming from God and the Book from Moses, so let's step up the game. Keep in mind that I don't question the Word, just the inerrancy of the Book. Faith in God, I have plenty. Faith in people, not so much. Considering that a fallible human might well have gotten manna crumbs all over it, here's the next test: Can you support the doctrine that the words (not just the ideas) are divinely inspired, with more than faith and circular arguments?

So far so good. God did not write the second set, Moses did. It's argued that Exodus 34:28 refers to God, but "he" is inconsistent with the respect displayed throughout the rest of the book. God also clearly instructs Moses to do the writing in Exodus 34:27. Or do you think verses 27 and 28 are talking about different covenants? Deuteronomy 5:7-12 lists the commandments on the first set, given in Exodus 20:3-17, not the second set. Of course they're identical, he's repeating the story. Let us assume (or believe, whatever) that both sets of tablets were written by the hand of God and were identical. I ask again, why did God give Moses a different set of ten commandments in Exodus:12-26? If they weren't on the tablets, why not? I can understand Moses might have had his hands full inscribing just ten, but surely God could have written more.

If the commandments were so vital, why did God provide Moses with an entirely different set of rules after he smashed the first set of tablets?

Infidel!! Let the holy war begin! "Udder buks onlee iz gud for sleepin-papurs; scrathinz in dem iz like, “Iz gud dis. No, iz gud dat, No, iz gud udder, doan MEK NO SENZ! Buk wif bestest meowingz, Rewfcat haz it. Srsly." - lolkoran 4:82

Hope you all have a happy green sunny fun day!

Digressing from giants for a moment... Pondering the political debates around here lately reminded me of another article linked through the ooparts site, so I thought I'd sew some threads together a bit. Hang in there, it all makes sense by the end. To begin, and since I'm a relative noob around here, I should share that I believe the only fair and moral system of government is Anarchism. I believe the same concept holds true for religion and science (they just use different currency; faith and information, respectively, instead of cash, though civil rights weaves through them all.) No matter the subject, when we drop back from our own perspectives long enough to see that the rules of the game change depending on where we're standing or how much we've learned, we can recognize the futility of stubbornly clinging to one ideology over another. A wise man once said "Everything is relative." Ok, more than one wise man has said it. If life is fluid, how are we to contain it in these webs we weave? We don't know it all, and we never will. Without such omniscience, it is but arrogance to claim to have any sort of authority over another at all. The flaw with the anarchic system, of course, is that most of us aren't yet mature enough to handle that kind of responsibility. I blame part of it on our weakly developed sense of empathym but we are an awful young species. It's useful, but cruelty and greed are much more efficient survival tools. The problem is, Life only cares that you live. It cares nothing for your comfort and less for anyone else's. It is up to us to *choose* to develop further than beasts. If you think anarchy means doing whatever you want, or that it must be achieved by force of arms, you've just demonstrated that you are not yet ready for it. So, if so many of us are still children, shouldn't we then still tell each other what to do? The answer is no. Don't like that word? Neither do children. How many more uncounted generations of suffering will it take to recognize that this approach doesn't work? Isn't even one too many? You see, nature doesn't change unless it's under pressure. That's why ants and squid and sharks and such have hardly (relatively speaking) changed in tens or hundreds of millions of years. They didn't need to. Yet, somehow, after all this time, we still cling to the notion that by tweaking the system or "sacred-text-bashing" our neighbors or collecting enough knowledge, that we can design the perfect solution to all our woes. The irony is, we already have one in place. One built into us from the beginning... it's called "Grow The Hell Up". Like those primordial creatures, we'll never be motivated to do it until we feel the pressure. I know, I know, it's a thoroughly unpleasant chore. Guess who avoids their chores? Yep. The question of old has been, how to get there from here? It's simple. Lay down your weapons, be they words or laws or bits of old bone and behave yourselves. It's not easy, but it's good for you. And when some of us still act like spoiled brats, treat each other with love and you'll be surprised how quickly it all turns around. Well, unless you're dead, then you're gonna have to catch it on YouTube... but Fear does not exist in this dojo! Your safety is an illusion, release it. Here's a suggestion: start with our children. Stop sending them off to places (you know, like schools) where it's illegal for them to receive moral instruction during the most formative times of their lives. Part-time parenting? Are you kidding me? We all need to be guided constantly. No wonder we go right from school into another system (you know, jobs) where morality has no place beyond the law, where compassion is shunned and anything goes (if you can get away with it). Sorry man, just business. We've run out of room to run, and we have to face the reality that we've always been a global village. As talented as we are, you'd think we could act like one. So, to sum up: Science isn't about proof, it's about probabilities. Religion isn't about commands, it's about guides. And the only governing we have to do is of ourselves. All these aspects overlap, and when we forget even one of these things we stop growing. What's worse, we prevent each other from growing. If you want to evolve, it's gotta hurt. But don't worry, love will heal the wound. The amazing power of Love is such that it transcends even (insert favorite divinity) For when you take (him/her/it/them) out of the equation, it is still our wisest course of action. ~~* Just another reminder from your friendly neighborhood bodhi. *~~ And yes, while I still confine myself to agreed upon conventions, I reject the laws of grammar by placing my periods willy-nilly around the quotes and parens. Aren't I a rogue?! (Please don't kill me!!) Now back to the Giants, already in progress... kick those Bums in the arse!

"And they became pregnant, and they bare great giants, whose height was three thousand ells" - Enoch 7:2 It's not a precise unit, but 3000 ells = ~1 mile. That's just from the text you referenced. Laurence's translation has them at 300 cubits (~600 feet) (Enoch 7:12), but that's still pretty darn tall! I don't have a Ge'ez copy (and couldn't read it anyway) so I don't know what errors may or may not have been introduced along the way. That's the point, I actually agree with Dan and was just arguing against the "instant creation 6000 years ago" philosophy.. I could have been clearer.

According to the Book of Enoch the giant children of the fallen angels were about a mile tall. I don't recall anyone ever finding those bones, but I suppose the The Flood could have taken care of that. That alone would be cause to call them great. As to the age of the Earth... well, if you were an eternal being looking for something to do would you whip up the universe (as is) in a flash, or stretch it out over a few billion years? "And the righteous shall arise from their sleep, and wisdom shall arise and be given unto them." - Enoch 91:10

I think we got off on the wrong foot here, Brother Mike... I certainly didn't intend for my replies to come across as an offhand rejection of everything the site contains. I objected because much of their evidence seems to be intentionally arranged to mislead those who do not dig deeper into the mysteries, not that the information itself is necessarily errant. I've been dealing with that sort of mindset (based on faulty logic and abysmal scientific procedure) for a long time now, so if my frustration bled through and my posts seem dismissive or offensive I sincerely apologize. Frankly, I find your opinion of the topics to be more reliable than theirs. We may still disagree on some things, but you've brought some interesting items to my attention and I look forward to learning more. Peace.

There absolutely would be from me. It's not so much that I deny the evidence, it's with how the evidence is presented that I take issue. One example is the "airplane" artifacts. Ancient cultures were far wiser and more knowledgeable than we often give them credit for but, even if they are legitimate, flying toys do not mean one can leap to the conclusion that they had the capability of flight; only that they had an understanding of aerodynamic concepts. The "helicopter" of Abydos is portrayed in the same fashion, and the site is full of such "proof". That's why I believe it to have an agenda.

At eleven at night that was the most concise expression of the website I could manage. There's some good information there, and a lot of pseudo-scientific conjecture designed to mislead the ignorant. It strikes me as nothing more than an attempt to justify literal creationist theory with half-truths and unsupported hypotheses. I'm happy to discuss it all in more detail, but I wanted to study the site in more depth before I got too involved. Let me start with Noah's Ark.. why would anyone think it's on top of a mountain? When the flood waters receded, it is said, the dove returns with an olive branch. Well olive trees don't grow at 3800+ meters, so it must have come from a much lower elevation. This means the water at the time must have been even lower than that. They should be looking for the thing in the plains, or at best the lower slopes. As for the flood itself.. while there is evidence of global flooding, it lies buried deep below many other layers. Creationists like to say God created those layers all at once. Why then is the flood layer not at or very near the top if it only happened a few thousand years ago? Did He pull back the waters and suddenly whip up more dirt to mess with us? There's way too much to go over in a single post, so I'll address the issues as they arise. I especially like the one where they "disprove" the evolution of the coywolf by attributing its development to an evolutionary process.

::headdesk::

...or so I am named by both the Dreamspell and Chinese zodiac. As Kokopelli bears the seeds and promise of spring, so am I a weaver of the Yellow Seed Wavespell, and this is a day of great healing power and responsibility for me. Whatever your faith I ask only that you join me in prayer today so that we may ALL come together in harmony, and find peace. I Channel in order to Love Inspiring Loyalty I seal the Process of Heart With the Resonant tone of Attunement I am guided by the power of Spirit I am a galactic activation portal Enter me

I find this absolutely hilarious coming from someone who apparently hasn't even considered the Preface to his own "authorized" version (itself derived from Greek translations of Hebrew texts.) "They that are wise, had rather have their judgments at liberty in differences of readings, than to be captivated to one, when it may be the other." I do not doubt that the word of God is contained within, but to claim it is the sole and ultimate authority is to display an ignorance and arrogance that even the translators did not possess. "For is the kingdom of God to become words or syllables? Why should we be in bondage to them if we may be free, use one precisely when we may use another no less fit, as commodiously?" Personally I prefer the 1613 KJV, but don't tell my wife.

Any action can be, and probably is, both moral and immoral at the same time... just depends on who you ask. Suicide can be considered immoral if you believe that your life belongs to God and "Thou shalt not kill" applies not just to other people, but yourself as well. Or maybe it's just silly. Depends who you ask.