RevTom
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Posts posted by RevTom
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5 minutes ago, Diego_008 said:
Well, certainly most Jews, and the Jehovah's Witnesses, would agree. But Judaism, and ESPECIALLY Christianity, went through a Hellenising phase. THAT is really where the concept of the Eternal Soul developed. Judaism did not develop the idea deeply enough to come up with Hell, though some Jews DO believe in it (a minority).
But Christianity DID Platonise, and Aristotelianise, sufficiently to get the idea. The NT itself talks about the lake of everlasting fire, as I recall.
Unless you are willing to toss out the Hellenising influence on Christian thought, I don't think you can just drop Hell from consideration. Even Luther and Sola Scriptura, Sola Fide, Sola Gratia was not ready to throw out the Church Fathers.
I see you did not read the verses. If you wish to not read the verses and gain understanding from their context there is no basis for discussion. People have the freedom and right to believe as they wish upon reading the verses and their context, but it is quite clear: There is no everlasting punishment of hellfire and damnation - the punishment is until one is consumed, then obliterated from existence.
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7 hours ago, Diego_008 said:
I DO know about the Valley of Hinnom, later called Gehenna. Jews to this day do not believe in Hell as such. I also know about Sheol, which is known in LXX Greek as Hades.
But that is not the point. The NT does speak of Hell, and at least part of it IS eternal. I am not sure how any Christian can get around that.
Greetings, my friends: The point I wish to make involves a rather lengthy discourse, taen from the Bible verses that refer to the fate of those who persist in wickedness. Yes, the NT does speak of Hell, and in fact, the OT speaks of a punishment for those who do not repent of wickedness, and continue their wicked ways. The questions arise from the punishment meted to those who do wrong and are bent on doing so: The context in Isaiah 66 refers to a time when, God says, “all flesh shall come to worship before Me” (Isaiah 66:23). It is a time when the wicked will be no more. What will have happened to them? In Isaiah 66:24 we read that people “will go out and look upon the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; their worm will not die, nor will their fire be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind” (NIV). Note that in 66:24, God says people will go out and look upon the dead bodies..." They are not living souls writhing in eternal flame, but their bodies have been consumed and the worms are eating their remains. What does Jesus mean in Mark 9:48 when He quotes Isaiah in saying, “the fire is not quenched”? Within the context we can understand. He means simply that the fire will burn until the bodies of the wicked are consumed. This expression, used several times in Scripture, refers to fire that consumes entirely (Ezekiel 20:47). An unquenched fire is one that has not been extinguished. Rather, it burns itself out when it consumes everything and has no more combustible material to keep it going. As we discussed earlier, the wicked will be destroyed. They will not live for eternity in another place or state of everlasting anguish. They will reap their destruction in the lake of fire at the end of the age. They will be consumed virtually instantaneously by the heat of the fire and will never live again. Those who willfully choose to reject His way of life, characterized by obedience to His law of love (Romans 13:10), will die, not suffer forever. They will be consumed by fire and forgotten. Revelation 20:9 "And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them." They will not be tortured for all eternity. Remember that eternal life is something that God must grant, and He will grant it to only those who repent and follow Him—not those who persist in rebellion against Him. They will be forgotten for all time: They will be forgotten eternally.
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4 hours ago, Diego_008 said:
Well, I am not so sure I agree with you there. It seems to me that some behaviour is just awful, and deseves some kind of punishment. Of course, the Muslim Hell is a bit like Orthodox Christian concepts, wherein there are two layers, Hades and Gehenna, although the Muslims do not name it in that manner. But Hell is not NECESSARILY permanent to a Muslim or an Orthodox. Catholics have an analogous concept, Purgatory, but that IS a bit different, nonetheless. I do NOT accept Luther's simplified Heaven and Hell for all Eternity. There almost has to be a Hades/Sheol in there to account for the fact that most of us are not immediately worthy of Heaven, nor of Eternal Hell (Gehenna), aside from the truly awful (Stalin, Pol Pot), or the truly blessed.
It is curious that a Christian staple, the concept of hell, is never mentioned in the Bible until the New Testament. The names ascribed to mean hell do not necessarily mean hell in the common context. I for one, am a christian who does not believe in hell neither in theory nor physical location. The thought of everlasting fire and burning in hell comes from The Valley of Hinnom, later spoken of as Gehenna in Aramaic. This is the valley south of Jerusalem where the inhabitants would take their rubbish and burn it. The fires were ever burning, or at least smoldering. Another reference to what many think of as hell is Sheol, which was the Hebrew term for the abode of the dead, but not a place of eternal damnation and punishment. Nowhere in the Bible is there a place of eternal damnation and punishment until the New Testament. I for one, am a christian who does not believe in a place of eternal and fiery punishment. I do not believe that God would so subject a soul to eternal agony. It seems to me one of the biggest issues man has to come to terms with is the cessation of existence. i like the metaphor I bring to people in study classes from time to time: If I have painstakingly set up an aquarium and stocked it with all types of beautiful fish, I would (and have) do everything I can to keep it a healthy and vibrant aquarium community. If one of the fish turns out to be a bully, I do not put it where it will be in pain: I either remove it and put it in another aqurium where it won't bully the fish there, or i kill it...no lingering death, no long term suffering. I just remove the disturber of peace. I cannot imagine
God doing otherwise.
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6 hours ago, mererdog said:
The best way to ensure you never succeed is to never try.
Well, I put forth my reasoning for actions, and it is there. It has been a spirited debate, and has tested the waters of perceptions, which is good. We discuss and debate, and respectfully acknowledge differing opinions, and sometimes in light of the discussions, alter our own. Whether we retain our opinions and/or beliefs or change them, the purpose is served, and we are the better for it, IMO.
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29 minutes ago, Rev. Calli said:
Greetings to you my brother,
Death situations can be very hard to deal with. I always found it hard when it was for people I had come to know and love. But these are also the times when you can do the most good.
The hardest situation I ever dealt with was when I was called to a Maternity ward, to be with a young lady who was going to give birth to twin girls who would die only a few minutes after birth. I forget the exact name of their condition, but there was nothing that could be done for them. The mother desperately wanted the children to be baptised in the few fleeting moments they would have of life. As soon as the first one was born, she was passed to me, and I baptised her while she died in my arms. When the second one was born, the mother took the first one from me while I baptised the second one, and held her close as she took her last breath. The mother told me afterwards that she never felt as close to God as she did in those moments.
In solidarity,
Rev. Calli
That had to be an intense experience, my brother. I have never dealt with death in an official capacity. Having experienced death of close ones, I believe I can offer warmth and compassionate care to those grieving if called upon to do so. I think it would also help give me closure with the deaths of my siblings to help others going through that experience.
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37 minutes ago, mererdog said:
That is true. Which is part of the point. The value of a man lies in his potential, as much as in his actuality. This is usually considered patently obvious to everyone when talking about babies or themselves.
People make choices, and so they are not doomed to stay on the same path. Redemption and reformation happen.
Even the unrepentant and seemingly iredeemable can make one right decision at one key moment that has a bigger positive impact on the world than anything I will ever do. And they can do it for all the wrong reasons or completely on accident.
Tom Paine also reminds that virtue is not hereditary, thus muggers can produce doctors as easily as doctors can produce muggers.
And, of course, many doctors have proven to be pedophiles, rapists, or murderers. Which illustrates nicely the point that when we judge one another we necessarily do so based on limited and faulty information. That is not how I wish to be judged, so I try not to judge others that way. Seems like common courtesy, you know?
For me, the courtesy stops when someone forcibly attempts to harm me or someone around me. Then there is no understanding. We will have to understand that neither of us will persuade the other differently on this.
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Here is a powerful message about perspective and perceptions. I hope you enjoy it.
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Greetings and Good Tidings; Isn't it fascinating that in our daily walk through life, we meet many people who we just have brushing acquaintances with...the lady in the supermarket you exchanged hellos with, the man walking his dog you nodded Hi to at the red light, the person from years ago you met on the street and struck up a conversation with. In each of these instances, we leave an impression of some sort. That person also leaves an impression of some kind upon us. It is up to us what kind of impression that will be. We can work together to help make each other's journey pleasant, or be a hindrance to that journey. In so doing, we affect our own path by the same measure.
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What a wonderful metaphor about an approach to cooperation and helping one another.
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1 minute ago, mererdog said:
Ever watch the original The Magnificent Seven? Whether or not it helps to bring a knife to a gunfight depends entirely on how you use the knife. Nonviolence is the same way.
There are nonviolent solutions to violence. They are sometimes not obvious, usually not easy, and never without risk. Now, you can claim that situations exist where no nonviolent solutions can be effective. But if you didn't try, you don't really know. And even if you did try, you don't really know whether the problem was your plan or your implementation.
I do not believe my life or the lives of my family to be more valuable than that of a stranger. As a result, I am willing to risk our lives to protect the life of the stranger. You ask what help pacifism is. The answer is that it protects others from me. This can only make sense if you take as a given that human life has intrinsic value that is unchanged by what a human chooses to do with that life. If you do not believe a mugger has as much value as a doctor, my words will be meaningless to you.
Well, you are correct in that I do not believe a mugger's life has the same value as a doctor. It may sound harsh, but people make choices. If the choices they make are to cause others harm and they are bent on their path of destruction, then yes, I will meet that affront with all the force necessary to subdue it.
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2 hours ago, Pastor Dave said:
I used to have to use satellite internet (Hughes Net). I agree, it was crazy expensive and extremely low download allowance (then we were throttled to about twice dialup speed). I recently found a local carrier (I think they said they use radio waves) that i switched to that offers unlimited download for a lot less (they are called Maximum Broadband). Granted my download speeds are slower (4 Mbps now vs 15Mbps with sat) but we had a 15GB download limit with satellite and last month we used 185 GB with the new plan and no throttling.
Greetings and good tidings; 1st, it is good to hear from you again. Thank you for the info. I will see if they are in my area. There seem to be very few options here. Even the cell phone range is at its maximum distance here where I live. I will check them out Thank you so very much.
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Greetings and good tidings;
I found the ulc.net site on Facebook. It was hard to find until Brother Calli pointed me toward it. I found there to be quite a bit of robust discussion there, and will frequent it as well as here to observe and participate in the discussions. I also found several Twitter pages, but am not sure if the ones I found re legit. Can someone help me with this? https://twitter.com/ulcblessings, https://twitter.com/ulcseminary?lang=en. Are either of these legit?
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6 hours ago, Rev. Calli said:
Greetings to you my brother,
Thank you. Those prayers are actually the ones I would use at the moment of death. I did hospital chaplaincy work for many years when I was in the full-time ministry, and I have used those prayers more times than I care to remember.
If I remember correctly, you come from a UMC background. Our Book of Worship has some very fine resources to use in death and dying situations, as well as for funerals. I always kept a copy of the Pastors Pocket Book of Worship in my emergency bag, so I would have it readily available during what could be very hard situations. I never wanted to trust my own memory, since often the people I was with at the moment of their death had become good friends of mine, and I found it easier to have the words right in front of me during the times I was fighting my own grief.
In solidarity,
Rev. Calli
Greetings and good tidings; I understand that sometime in my ministry I will most likely be called upon to preside at funerals. I do not relish this, to be candid. I have seen much death among close family and friends (sister died when we were children - she died when she was 15 years old, one year younger than i). My youngest brother died 2 years later when he was 3 years old. there is only one member living of my close family other than me, and that is my son, who is 29 years old. I witnessed a family being burned to death in a car accident. These events left me scarred, and I do not like attending funerals. I have written the funeral passages for other ministers who were not up to the task, but I think presiding over one would be a much different matter. I do like he passages and will keep them in my files. Thank you for sharing them. In many ways, the past relationship with UMC was very rewarding and soul quenching. It is at a church where the spirit is alive that my soul finds peace. I especially like to go to a spirit filled church after hours of worship to think and reflect.
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4 hours ago, Rev. Calli said:
Greetings to you my brother,
I too have been a bit lax in posting here lately. I've been experimenting with doing audio and video messages, and posting them on some of the facebook pages I frequent.
In solidarity,
Rev. Calli
Alas!!! I can only watch videos late night (after 2am) because I have satellite internet, and the download allowance is limited. I book mark videos that are important or interesting so I can watch them one of the nights I am up late. A bit off the topic, but if anyone is faced with a decision of living where internet is by satellite or WIFI, R U N !!! Pay the extra $1500 per month rent, but R U N !!! The satellite internet and WIFI companies will suck you dry mercilessly!!!
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8 hours ago, sean4554 said:
Frisbeetarianism is the belief that when you die, your soul goes up on the roof and gets stuck. - George Carlin
...if you were a reincarnationist, how about Boomerangism? Your soul gets tossed around a lot but keeps coming back.
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11 hours ago, EricCoates said:
I Just wanted to say hello to everyone!
Greetings, good tidings, and welcome.
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32 minutes ago, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:
This only follows if you insist that God is all good. I understand why such an assumption is tempting -- but I think it is still an unproven assumption.
The only things we will ever have as "proofs" or indications are what we read from the scriptures, and how we interpret life's events and the events of history. The evidences will never be empirical with those who see God in a different context than do christians, yet these very evidences will be empirical to those who are christian.
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On 8/10/2017 at 1:05 AM, Jonathan H. B. Lobl said:I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things.I find this verse highly interesting. Darkness is not the absence of Light. Darkness is created. There is also the small issue of good and evil.I though this might make an interesting conversation.
Greetings, and good tidings: This is indeed an interesting topic and as you will delve through a discourse in apologetics referring to the meaning of "...and create evil" there can be several interpretations, but there seem to be a consensus among bible scholars. I am christian, but find several topics interesting in their various interpretations. My understanding is that in this sense, God created times of good and prosperity, and also times of despair and stress. (the New Living Translation phrases it as “I am the one who creates the light and makes the darkness. I am the one who sends good times and bad times", and the New JPS Translation According to the Traditional Hebrew Text concurs with this understanding ; “I form light and create darkness, I make weal and create woe—I the Lord do all these things.”). Thus, God creates the times of prosperity and times of troubles, but does not create evil or thngs that are by nature evil in the sense of moral depravity.
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Greetings and Blessings to all: I have been a bit slack this week in that I did not prepare a sermon or topic of discussion for the blogs I normally post. I am thankful for the positive things that have happened this week. I am in an arts and crafts show for labor day weekend, discovered my ordination is in fact from here at ULC, and also discovered my ordination date is much earlier than I had remembered. I duly updated the info here. It is so very easy to get caught up in the day to day hustle and bustle of life, forgetting the events that have brought one to their present condition and I am of course no exception. I resolve to be more diligent and to spend time on those things that are of value to me: My faith, the sharing of observations that can help people, and most importantly, being of service in whatever ways I can.
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The allowable upload size is ridiculously small. If you want to see my work in actual size go to https://www.pinterest.com/tommyjohns56/ or https://www.hiddenglentreasures.com/
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Another drawing. I hope you enjoy.
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On 7/27/2017 at 10:23 PM, RevSam said:
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I believe that in too many ways we are becoming hardened through the interglobal connection offered by the world wide web, and by our acceptance of mainstream media as the arbiter of what is factual and newsworthy. In a global community, it is easy to become overwhelmed and desensitized to world events. While in one sense I believe it is good to be a part of the greater global community, I also believe that in a very real way we have lost a sense of community within our own neighborhoods, states and nations.
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The Noble Qur'an, Hadith, and other matters.
in Monotheist Theologies & Scriptures
Posted · Edited by RevTom
inflammatory passage and remarks I withdraw
You are rather myopic in believing YOU HAVE THE CORRECT INTERPRETATION of the passages. The interpretations I offered are agreed upon by numerous studies and scholars.