To`na Wanagi

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Posts posted by To`na Wanagi

  1. It has been awhile since I poured over Christian scripture, but as I recall there are no words attributed to Jesus in which he condemns homosexuality - of course, there being no words by which he endorses it. Such condemnation as I recall comes in the Pauline epistles. As for Jewish scripture, it would be a mistake to see the story of Sodom and Gomorrah - and a parallel story in Judges - as condemnations of homosexuality either. Those stories actually deal with a violation of הכנסת אורחים the rules regarding hospitality and the protection one owes to visitors. Nor can one say that the passages in Leviticus - which are usually, but not always, mistranslated - which are quoted in support of a condemnation of homosexuality or, at least, homosexual behavior, actually stand for that proposition. I believe that I have covered this in previous posts and so I will not repeat myself here.

    But dear friend, sometimes we all need reminders....especially when we reach a "certain age"....if ya know what I mean?..But know this, I would never, ever, throw you to the lions!!!.But even if someone else did, I know you would be just like Daniel!. :cupidarrow::derisive:

  2. To'na, since the term homosexuality was not coined until the 20th century, Jesus could not have used the word. The word he would have used is "sodomite", and though he did not single them out from others in need of His message of Forgiveness, they were definitely among the crowds that he preached to and several of those that were exorcized of demons were practicing "sodomites."

    Show me NT scripture in the words of Jesus where he used the term sodomite.

    (I must also add that I find your choice of words in the above post curious. I know that I did not use the word "freaks", and I don't believe that anyone else has used the word. I find it very interesting that in your prophetized future, when our numbers will be reversed, that you chose to use the term to describe heterosexuals.)

    Do you really think there are any in the glbt community who have not been described as freaks and much worse? Why? Simply because they are different....and that is the nature of the human condition, to deride any who do not follow after their specific doctrines, prejudices, are the "wrong" color, "wrong" sex, or "wrong" orientation according to their judgments. Why would you think that would change if the roles were reversed after generations of persecution from the religious right? It is not unusual for the "liberators" to become the oppressors. Everyone wants their pound of flesh so they can feel righteous....... don't they? :dirol:

  3. The grandfather watched as the young boy/man was obviously restless to experience more than what his village had offered him, so he asked him "Grandson, what is it that bothers you?"

    The boy/man said, "Grandfather, I think I am now a man and I wish to go out into the world and discover the mysteries of life. Can you tell me grandfather, where I will find these things?"

    Grandfather said to him, "Go into the forest, down in the valley near the river. There you will find all the answers to your questions. But take care to watch all things around you for within them you will learn many lessons."

    The boy/man hurriedly gathered his things together and set off on his vision quest. He walked for several days until he reached a high place overlooking the valley below with the broad river winding through it. He could not contain his excitement and rushed down into the valley where he came upon a huge tree blocking his path.

    The boy was gone for a long time and grandfather waited patiently for his return. When finally the boy/man came around the lodge and saw his grandfather sitting there motioning to him to come and sit beside him. "Grandson, you have been gone a long time. tell me what you have experienced and learned."

    The boy/man related all he had seen on his way to the great forest and told his grandfather of the great tree that stood in his path. Grandfather asked him, "What did you do?"

    The boy/man declared, "I took out my hatchet and cut it down!"

    Grandfather asked, "And what did you find?"

    The boy/man said, "I found another tree beyond it so that I still could not see past the tree. So I cut that down too! And every time I cut down a tree, another one stood in my way. So I cut, and cut, and cut, until I came through to the other side."

    Grandfather asked, "And what did you see?"

    The boy said angrily, "Nothing! I could not see the forest anywhere! I could not see the forest because of those trees!"

    Grandfather shook his head slowly, his eyes full of sorrow, stood and walked away. For he had hoped his grandson would have opened his eyes to the truth that the answers to his questions were within him all along and he did not have to take such long journeys to discover what was always right there. He looked at his granson and said, "You are not yet a man. Hear these words...."Swa di'e syok, neh kuh, swa ya do waht; swihsaak', neh kuh, na swa'gah; swah ho'ah e'syooh, neh kuh, neh da swa'de ho'on dyahs."

    His grandson asked, "What do these words mean?"

    To which grandfather replied, "Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." And judge no tree unworthy for it too is just a part of the forest."

  4. What did Jesus have to say about all this? Ohhhhhh......Nothing? :detective2: Well then, I must assume He had no problems with those who were born differently. He did have a lot to say about heterosexuals though....

    And those of you who do have a problem? You should probably get used to it, because we are not going away. No. In fact, because of pollution of our water supplies there are more and more of us born every day. Soon the earth will be filled with androgynous individuals created by the will of man and his foolish enterprises. Perhaps in that day heterosexuals will be deemed the "freaks"?. .....Just sayin'.... :dirol:

  5. (I started this yesterday afternoon but had to leave before I could post, and though several have responded since then, my position has not been altered by their positions or opinions.)

    So, Tsuki .... are you making the correlation between this "syndrome" and an individual's sexual orientation? From what I've read on the net concerning the phenomena, the jury is out as to whether it (BIID) is caused by a genetic abnormality, a neurological disease, or a psychological disorder, and I'm not sure that the gay and lesbian communities would appreciate the connection you have made between the two "conditions" (thus inferring that sexuality is also influenced by one of the causes above and is therefore unnatural or abnormal) and conclude that their behavior was beyond their control.

    I personally do not think that homosexuality is genetically influenced (which some would use to excuse the acts and make the behavior "acceptable"), but a conscious choice made my an individual in defiance of social and religious mores. I've no doubt that some may find my personal opinion objectionable and will certainly condemn me for having dared to make my opinion public. So be it.... I don't seek your approval of my actions, why insist on my approval of yours?

    So you are challenging the medical evidence of several of my own physicians proving beyond a doubt my own physiological anomalies which basically made me a two- gendered person? You are denying the existence of hermaphrodism? You are denying the proven medical fact of a male body possessing a female brain? Based on what? Religious indoctrination which states otherwise based on 6 thousand year old prejudices before the age of modern medicine? Come on Songster, I really don't think even you believe that... :dirol:

    My people even recognized and respected glbt members of their own tribes for over a few thousand years and appreciated the gifts and talents they shared with their communities.

  6. I very much appreciate this topic and both posts. I am one of "those" creatures. And while I tried so earnestly, so honestly, so passionately to be what the world expected me to be, the six words pounding and resounding in my heart, my head, my spirit were; "To thine own self be true." Which is why I live by those words while exhorting to the rest of the world, "Just because the world thinks/says it's so, does not make it so."

    If there is such a thing as sin, then those who perpetuate and promote hostility toward those of us who have had no part in our own procreation and are anamolies of nature, have surely sinned against the very God they claim to follow. We are all children of God....or...none of us are.

    And for those who do not believe in a god, their prejudicial bigotries are no less than those they despise.

    Thank you dear sister for your eloquence and beautiful spirit of love for one another. :cloud9: And thank you dear brother for your understanding heart. :huglove:

    I have told many a soul that maybe, just maybe, God made people like me so that people like they could learn to understand people like me. ...God's Peace....To`na Wanagi

  7. Who is advocating eugenics in the scientific community right now? Neo-eugenics perhaps, which I support myself, but not likely eugenics. Eugenics has too many problems, particularly when it comes to genetic diversity. It would run the risk of driving us extinct more easily.

    The manipulation of our food sources, the human genome project, all these are leading to what you apparently aspire to.

    "Play god" is such an insipid, worthless, and utterly idiotic phrase. What god? No god exists? So which of humanities fictionalized gods are we playing at? The Abrahamic jealous, spiteful, vindictive god that condones and commands rape, torture, and murder? The Hellenic gods with their womanizing and petty grudges? One thing that never seems to change is that humanity has the potential to be infinitely more moral than the gods it dreams up and out of some well of stupidity draws forth the desire to worship these imaginings of barbaric and horrible times. No, no god exists to play as, and being a creature of conscience, I doubt most would choose to play as one anyway.

    Whether you wish to admit it or not, those same "god-delusions of grandiosity" are not reserved to only religious gods, but also to the ones some have made up in their minds about themselves. Those whose condescension toward others who do not meet with their approval or intellectual standards such as you have illustrated by your own words. The suggestion of manipulating the human brain to eliminate certain aspects of its natural functioning interferes with the natural evolution of our species. By this action, those who attempt this are of the belief they know what is best for humankind and are therefore qualified to alter the entire species to their own liking, taking that action, you deny others their most basic rights to life, liberty and their own personal pursuit of happiness. No one is qualified or authorized to take this away from another human being.

    Humans learn and apply that learning to our surroundings to survive and thrive. That is the animal we are. It is the animal we've evolved to be.

    Then allow our species to evolve at its own rate not to be determined by another fallible human....You do consider yourself fallible, don't you?

    The human race has done quite enough damage by those who believe in the insane ramblings of Bronze Age desert tribesmen as written by Iron Age politicians.

    As well as modern day chemists and scientists. The extinction of species in the last 100 years surpasses those of the bronze or iron ages. And today's politicians are still quite adept at insane ramblings.

    Would you call the elimination of a mental illness genocide? I wouldn't.

    That has not been accomplished and is still a far way off. Are you suggesting we return to continuing to use human Guinea Pigs as they did in the days of old thorazine and lobotomizing and radical ECT? Oh yeah, they are anyway! :dirol:

    Removing the disease of superstition and theism is a good thing. Is a healthy man superior to a sick one? No, he is just in better health. I don't think I am your superior, just in a better state of health.

    That is your opinion, of which I strongly disagree.

    I don't think that sentence means what you think it means. Eschew means to avoid. So you're telling me I avoid "the very same mentality" when I believe you're attempting to accuse me of having it.

    No. I stand by the word which means "to shun something unworthy or injurious". As you declare you do, you are unable to admit you are of that same mind which you shun.

    However, I do not. I have no faith, nore any need of a faith. I think that humans should indeed alter the human condition, it is what we are evolved to do and we stand to eliminate a great deal of suffering if we do so with care.

    Again, this is nothing more than a conjecture and opinion...a dangerous one (emboldened above).

    And, more importantly, I am not suggesting anyone be lobotomized. Connection to the prefrontal cortex would remain and functionality would not be diminished.

    Removing or destroying parts of the brain can certainly be called a lobotomy. And functionality would be diminished because that aspect of the human brain would cease to exist and function. And just because a person may not be cognizant of this fact does not make it any less so. It is still gone. And who are you to say what that specific part of the brain might evolve into naturally? Do you presume to know how those folds and wrinkles will eventually move and migrate as our species evolves?

    There are some enjoyable, even useful, effects in phenomena associated with "religious" experience.

    Again, as a result of these experiences, will the human condition evolve by te experience? And yet you would put an end to the natural process and phenomenon which is still hypthetical and conjecture of those who have some gripe/beef with religiosity/faith?

    Coming from a woman who cannot separate her imagination from reality, that means less than nothing to me.

    That is a great assumption on your part. Because I protect the right of others to believe as they will does not mean I endorse those beliefs. I accept the natural order of things and have no desire to interfere with those processes as this creation evolves. I have no fears of death, or extermination, and am not subject to superstition. I feel no need to play god and change the course of evolution on any plane. I contend that whatever a person experiences is real to them and it must be they who come to the terms of those natural conditions. I also contend that no one has the right to take away those rights or experiences. My best expression of love is to live and let live...not to think I have cornered the market on truth or that my way is the only way.

    Have you ever wondered why humankind is on such a fast pace to its own demise and destruction? Why is it only we humans have to hurry things up, change our environments, believe we have the right to eliminate specific species, and now to manipulate the very core of our identity through demagoguery? (the process of leading the populace by pandering prejudices and passions, unprincipled and unbridled.)IMO, people who plant these kinds of seeds in the minds of others depend upon both, their approval and their ignorance. I provide neither to anyone. But I do endorse the right for them to believe as they wish and will be there to issue my objections to foolishness.

  8. All things are an argument, in the end. Life is war. We are at war with our very surroundings. Each moment there is other life waiting to fill the niche in which you stand. It's brutal, it's hard, it'd be cruel if nature were a thinking feeling thing. I do believe, though, that we have a moral imperative to use the brain knowledge has given us to find a way to minimize the brutality of life(Human driven intelligent design). But, as long as there are people who waste it on things such as superstition, we'll be stuck in that war. It'd almost be worth deliberately modifying the human brain to be incapable of "religious" experience as it is neurological phenomena and nothing more.

    These are the things of which you state nick, which scare the hell out of me. These are the very instruments and thoughts of people the likes of Dr. Mengele and the newest mad scientists who advocate eugenics and want to play god. I think the human race has done quite enough damage to this earth and to our own species by those who think they are superior to others and are entitled to commit genocide. While you criticize those who have a faith/belief in a higher power and the instruments of those faiths, you eschew the very same mentality by suggesting human demi-gods alter the human condition through a lobotomizing of the brain. IMO, that is an indication of a very troubled mind.

  9. As I have said many times, this world suffers from a soul-sickness which is caused by a spiritual blight, an absence of spirit. But as many of our world sages have prophesied it would be, so it is. Why are we surprised? And their end will also come, as will ours. May the Will of the Great Spirit be revealed, be known, and be done....God's Peace.....To`na Wanagi

  10. Illinois law is quite unclear as to the procedure, so a call or visit to the county clerk in which the marriage will take place is in order, save for a member in Illinois giving you better information.

    There is no mention of the officiant ever seeing the license.

    No to To'Wa.... some states do, in fact, have official certificates which must be handled properly. Illinois is one of them.

    The two weddings I did perform in IL required my signature as the officiant on the license. ..IL did not provide me wth any official certificate but I provided my own for the couples. And before the gay marriage law was passed this past summer, domestic partnership laws were in place in certain municipalities in the state of IL, but not in most, parts of Chicago, but not all of Chicago, and Champaign-Urbana were two that I know of.

  11. Okay, I just read the 750 ILCS 5/Pt. II Laws on Marriage for the state of Illinois and was wondering..

    I understand we'll be able to get a marriage certificate for couples but do we also get the license or does the couple go to the County Clerk and take care of that? Or do we fill out both the certificate and license at the wedding or..?

    Also.. When forwarding the certificate(and license?) to the County Clerk does it have to be the original copy, or a separate copy filled out, or is it a photocopy?

    I never fill out the license until the deed is done. There arer times when people will resche3dule events, times when one or the other gets cold feet. No. I wait until all the vows are said and done. And usually the couple likes to gewt a photo of them signing their license. I treat the certificate in the same way. It is only a souvenir for the couple and has no legal power. For states which now have same sex marriage, the same basic procedure will take place. The two of them need to go to the county clerk, purchase their license and provide all the pertinent information and then the clerk will issue the license with some of the information on one side of the license. Both the married couple and the witnesses must sign the document for it to be legal.. Hope this helps. :derisive:

  12. "Light of the world, in grace and beauty, mirror of God's eternal face, Transparent flame of love's free duty, you bring salvation to our race. Now as the light of the evening approaches, we raise our voices in songs of praise; Worthy are you of endless blessing, Sun of our nights and Lamp of our days." - The Phos Hlaron

    May you find peace in all things joyful and tragic and may remorse not touch your heart....God's Peace....To`na Wanagi

  13. didn't know about the baking soda or waiting to salt the beans... and I'm southern ( they're gonna yank my card if y'all keep it up... )

    but since now I'm craving chili - guess I'll try both.... :) crock pot is calling my name....

    Beans, Beans, the musical fruit, the more you eat the more you toot. :stinker: The more you toot the better you feel :stinker::sigh::Jumpy: ....so eat your beans at every meal! :giggle: