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Jesus Vs Cosmic Christ


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#1 Zequatanil

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 03:47 AM

Though I call myself a Catholic, the church calls us renegade Catholics as my views are a bit out there, have been for many years. My view of Christ is very much in line that Fr R.Rohr holds--There are a few important Catholic theologians and idealogs that are somewhat at conflict with the Vatican--like Fr R.Rohr, Fr. M. Fox, H .Kung, Bede Griffith, T. Merton are but a few whom I would call New Age Catholics--there are many others that the Vatican wishes to silence. But now is loosening the grip of the archaic thinking a bit as the tide is far too strong from many enlightened souls. Thus I think if the Catholic Church is to survive it has to move into the 21st century--which I do believe is slowly. But here I would like to pose a question that is in Fr. Rohr`s arena who is a great free thinker to me.


``Rohr: Much of Christianity has made Jesus Christ into a denominational savior figure while others have looked upon his saving grace as limited to a few who meet strict qualifications. But what about creation as a whole? How far back and forward in time does the Christ figure extend, and who exactly is Christ?``


``We’ve turned Christianity into that evacuation plan for the next world. The term “cosmic Christ” reminds us that everything and everyone belongs. We’re all unworthy but the mystery of the Incarnation means the divine indwelling is in all of us. We’re indeed the body of Christ. God’s hope for humanity is that one day we will all recognize that the divine dwelling place is all of creation. Christ comes again whenever we see that matter and spirit coexist. This truly deserves to be called good news.``
http://ncronline.org/news/spirituality/eternal-christ-cosmic-story

Who for you--if you are a Christian is historical Jesus the man ?
Jesus the Christ?
Is salvation for you strictly the cross?
Is Jesus to be worshiped?
Or is Jesus to be followed?
Who the Cosmic Christ?--Is there a difference for you?
What does it actually mean for you in these terms?

I would love to hear your responses.

Blessings and peace,

S

#2 Bro. Hex

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 07:20 AM

Thanks, Sarky,

for introducing me to Fr. Rohr... I had not come across his name before.... he sounds interesting.
I have much the same background (R.C.) and disposition (I left the R.C.s to become an ultra-liberal Episcopalian)
as yourself. I also am smitten with much in ancient Gnostic scripture (Nag Hammadi... not the New Age stuff).
One of my favorite authors is John Dominic Crossan... you may have come across his works before.
I can't quite get "into" Fox... don't know why... maybe it is because he seems a bit too theatrical (market oriented) for my tastes.

ciao,

Hex

Edited by Bro. Hex, 17 June 2012 - 07:21 AM.


#3 Fawzo

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 09:32 AM

For me Yeshua Ben Yosef was most likely a failed Apocalyptic Teacher of Wisdom on a somewhat spiritual Plain as a Buddha and a Ghandi. I feel he was attempting to overthrow the Barbaric Temple System that was in place during his time. Then the Priestcraft and Superstitious humans enhanced the story to new heights after his death and through the centuries that followed.

Edited by Fawzo, 17 June 2012 - 09:33 AM.


#4 Zequatanil

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 09:34 AM

To me Fox is a bit Ecological--not as much spiritual I really don`t like his ``Cosmic Masses``--maybe the young people do, but I feel all that heavy metal kind of stuff is ``vexation to the spirit``--But he has a few good points and is very enthusiastic which we need. Maybe it is what the young people feel close to and thus will be a little more interested. Fr Rohr has some really great stuff on u-tube--I`d rather listen then read-- :doh:

blessings,

S

Fawzo--I have to agree with that!

namaste;

S

#5 Hyper Real

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 09:40 AM

Jesus?

I think he was possibly a deranged person born out of wedlock who could not deal with the fact he had no legitimate father and thus, being outlawed by the community, got obsessed with some imaginary spiritual father in heaven. Later became a charlatan who lived going from village to city and attracted a bunch of illiterates who followed him. Eventually his uncivil behavior led to his execution.

Edited by Hyper Real, 17 June 2012 - 09:44 AM.


#6 Fawzo

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 09:42 AM

Jesus?

I think he was possibly a deranged person born out of wedlock who could not deal with the fact he had no legitimate father and thus being outlawed got obsessed with some imaginary spiritual father in heaven. Later became a charlatan who lived from city to city and attracted a bunch of illiterates. Eventually his uncivil behavior led to his execution.

What makes you think he was deranged?

#7 Zequatanil

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 09:53 AM

Jesus?

I think he was possibly a deranged person born out of wedlock who could not deal with the fact he had no legitimate father and thus, being outlawed by the community, got obsessed with some imaginary spiritual father in heaven. Later became a charlatan who lived going from village to city and attracted a bunch of illiterates who followed him. Eventually his uncivil behavior led to his execution.


Well for a deranged person he sure made a large splash. How many Christians are there--I seem to have forgotten :doh:

pax,
S

#8 Hyper Real

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 09:54 AM

What makes you think he was deranged?

He got followers who believed he could heal people by for instance using his saliva an put it in people's eyes with or without mixing it with mud. That single example sounds pretty deranged to me.

Do you believe one can make a blind person see by spitting in his eyes?

Well i don't, I think the suggestion that that is possible is completely idiotic.

By the way, what do you Christians think of Mohammed?

Edited by Hyper Real, 17 June 2012 - 09:57 AM.


#9 Bro. Hex

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 09:57 AM

What makes you think he was deranged?


I second this question.

Just because many people obsessed about him... after he died... (some of them to the point of derangement) ...just because a fellow called Paul (who had never even met him) constructed an elaborate salvic fantasy around "the meaning" of his death... none of this is a reflection upon Yeshua (Jesus) himself.

#10 Zequatanil

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 10:05 AM

He got followers who believed he could heal people by for instance using his saliva an put it in people's eyes with or without mixing it with mud. That single example sounds pretty deranged to me.

Do you believe one can make a blind person see by spitting in his eyes?

Well i don't, I think the suggestion that that is possible is completely idiotic.

By the way, what do you Christians think of Mohammed?


Actually--I am certainly a Christian--I admire him greatly--he was a holy man and believe he was a prophet of God. Forget the politics of today. I do follow some of his teachings--especially in Sufi wisdom. There are many roads to Rome--God is God for me even if he is called Allah or YAHWEH--or Universal Consciousness, Light of Light--or Source or whatever. Universal truth is just that--Universal.

pax,
S

Edited by sarkany, 17 June 2012 - 10:06 AM.


#11 Bro. Hex

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 10:07 AM

Do you believe one can make a blind person see by spitting in his eyes?
Well I don't,

I think the suggestion that that is possible is completely idiotic.

Apparently you are unfamiliar with the power of suggestion.
Many respectable medical doctors acknowledge the efficacy of the placebo effect,
and they administer "medications" accordingly.

Are they "quacks" for utilizing the "power of the mind"
in their effort to improve the overall health of the patient?

By the way, what do you Christians think of Mohammed?

Speaking as a thoroughly liberal Christian, I think Mohammad was a tremendous "prophet" (spiritual leader, truth-speaker) whose influence on subsequent generations is on par with the influence of fellow "spiritual leaders", like Jesus (Yeshua) and Mahatma Gandhi.

Edited by Bro. Hex, 17 June 2012 - 10:14 AM.


#12 Hyper Real

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 10:09 AM

Actually--I am certainly a Christian--I admire him greatly--he was a holy man and believe he was a prophet of God.

I think Mohammad was a tremendous "prophet"

It is recorded in the Koran he consummated a marriage with a 9 year old?
is that perhaps cool?

Edited by Hyper Real, 17 June 2012 - 10:18 AM.


#13 Hyper Real

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 10:15 AM

Apparently you are unfamiliar with the power of suggestion.
Many respectable medical doctors acknowledge the efficacy of the placebo effect,
and they administer "medications" accordingly.

The issue is did Jesus believe he had powers to make blind people see.
If he did, then in my opinion he was deranged.

So, in your opinion, a blind person can see if you suggest to him you have powers to make him see?

#14 Bro. Hex

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 10:19 AM

So for instance consummating the marriage with a 9 year old is cool for you?

Certainly not in the 21st Century!
If you would judge a man, you must first understand the culture if his time and place in the world.
The American Indians say: "Before you judge a man, first walk a mile in his moccasins".
(Of course, if you get-off on judging others, you can skip this step.)

#15 Songster

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 10:22 AM

So for instance consummating the marriage with a 9 year old is cool for you?

Why?

The issue is did Jesus believe he had powers to make blind people see.
If he did, then in my opinion he was deranged.

So, in your opinion, a blind person can see if you suggest to him you have powers to make him see?

First the blind has to want to see.... not everybody with sight has vision.

Edited by Songster, 17 June 2012 - 10:25 AM.


#16 Bro. Hex

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 10:26 AM

The issue is did Jesus believe he had powers to make blind people see.
If he did, then in my opinion he was deranged.

(1) Perhaps "the issue" for you is whether or not Jesus believed he could make the blind see.
That is certainly not an issue for me.
I see no point in getting hung-up on questions that can never be answered.

So, in your opinion, a blind person can see if you suggest to him you have powers to make him see?

(2) You seem to "have a thing" for putting words into other peoples mouths.
I dislike it whenever someone "makes a statement about me", and then hangs a question-mark on the tail end.

Edited by Bro. Hex, 17 June 2012 - 10:32 AM.


#17 Hyper Real

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 10:32 AM

Of course all this implies the gospel stories are based on some actual events.

So we have Jesus walk on water.......
Sure, that is pretty credible testimony........... :rolleyes:

Edited by Hyper Real, 17 June 2012 - 10:39 AM.


#18 Fawzo

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 10:37 AM

The issue is did Jesus believe he had powers to make blind people see.
If he did, then in my opinion he was deranged.

So, in your opinion, a blind person can see if you suggest to him you have powers to make him see?

Hyper many Devotees of many sages and not so sages have attributed miraculous events to their Spiritual leaders. We have no first hand accounts from Yeshua's own lips or hands of what he believed or what he did. I would say the Gospel accounts are questionable at best if not down right mythical.

Of course all this implies the gospel stories are based on some actual events.

So we have Jesus walk on water.......
Sure, that is pretty credible testimony........... :rolleyes:

Buddha is pretty much accredited with the very same miracles as Jesus including walking on water and he lived 500 years before Jesus.

#19 Bro. Hex

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 10:39 AM

I neither know nor care if "Jesus walked on water". And I doubt very much that he ever claimed to be able to do that. The Gospel stories were written long after he died, in a culture wherein stories were typically embellished "to make a point". Read the Gospels "for what they are"...2000 year old folk stories. Take from them or learn from them what you may... or may not. You are the only one who can determine what, if anything, they have to say to you. It matters to me, not one whit what these stories mean to you, or to anyone other than myself... and speaking for myself...no, I don't think Jesus actually DID "walk on water", but it may have seemed to the others on that boat, that day, that he had done so. He may have had such a calming effect on their fear. Either way, I like the story... either way, I am not ego-invested in its factuality.

Edited by Bro. Hex, 17 June 2012 - 10:44 AM.


#20 Hyper Real

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 10:43 AM

Hyper many Devotees of many sages and not so sages have attributed miraculous events to their Spiritual leaders. We have no first hand accounts from Yeshua's own lips or hands of what he believed or what he did. I would say the Gospel accounts are questionable at best if not down right mythical.

Then those devotees have questionable morals wouldn't you say?
Talking about highers truths 24/7 while not shying away from falsifying events, the irony.

Buddha is pretty much accredited with the very same miracles as Jesus including walking on water and he lived 500 years before Jesus.

Shows to me that many writers of religious works have no qualms about lying for the 'good' cause.

#21 Fawzo

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 10:45 AM

Shows to me that many writers of religious works have no qualms about lying for the 'good' cause.

Exactly, they think the end justifies the means and that the end they them self desire is what everyone should desire.

#22 Hyper Real

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 10:53 AM

Read the Gospels "for what they are"...2000 year old folk stories.

What is the base of your faith?
Folk stories?

#23 Bro. Hex

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 10:56 AM

Then those devotees have questionable morals wouldn't you say?

Another statement about others, turned into a question by a "cowardly question-mark" attached to its tail.
And no, I would say "no such thing" about the morals of another person, even if I had some rational ground for determining what those morals "actually were"... which you do not have, simply by virtue of knowing that some element or elements of their belief system "is mythical". So what? What possible thing can my (hypothetical) belief in Santa Claus tell YOU about MY morals? You posit a non sequitur.

Edited by Bro. Hex, 17 June 2012 - 10:56 AM.


#24 Bro. Hex

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 11:03 AM

What ls the base of your faith?
Folk stories?


Frankly, what business is it of yours?


As a matter of fact,
I HAVE NO beliefs (of which I am aware).
I have Faith, but my Faith involves NO historic claims WHATSOEVER.
That makes me a pretty "unusual" Christian... but, again, "So What"?

#25 Hyper Real

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Posted 17 June 2012 - 11:04 AM

Let me take it a bit further:

If we have writers who knowingly write falsehoods for, what they perceive as, a good cause what would we think about those who defend those writers or even attack those who expose the writers?

To me they are on the opposite side of truth.

But perhaps that is what religion is all about?

Edited by Hyper Real, 17 June 2012 - 11:06 AM.





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