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"once A Thief Always A Thief"?


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#1 Hyper Real

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 09:06 AM

Should an employer be allowed to refuse to hire an applicant if in his past he has committed crimes?
And should this be different if the applicant wants a government job?

#2 RabbiO

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 09:12 AM

Should an employer be allowed to refuse to hire an applicant if in his past he has committed crimes?
And should this be different if the applicant wants a government job?


That's an overly broad question.

I suspect that you are not, but then again maybe you are, talking about a 19 year old college kid who gets busted for underage drinking at a frat party.

Edited by RabbiO, 29 March 2012 - 09:13 AM.


#3 Crzyme

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 09:21 AM

I do think an employer has the right, they might miss out on a good employee if they do not hire on record alone and they might end up hiring someone who has just not been caught but is a criminal without a record, but it should still be up to the company.

#4 Brother Kaman

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 10:04 AM

I always figured that if I was paying the wage, I would pay it to someone I wanted and not to someone that was mandated.

#5 Dan56

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 10:24 AM

Yes, an employer can reject an applicant for a criminal past, however I don't think an applicant is required to reveal anything that they were not actually convicted of... The application I use only ask, "Have you ever been convicted of a felony?" Nearly everyone I hire is required to handle cash, so security and trust are important issues. Employee's with former criminal records have not been nearly as much of a problem for me as the ones with mental problems. I just fired a woman with bipolar depression, she turned-out to be a nightmare and is still causing me problems. I'll never try that again :)

#6 Atwater Vitki

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 11:42 AM

When I had my studios, try and find a tattoo artist that didn't have some sort of something on their record. I truly did, and still do, believe in second chances, not fifth, eighth and tenth chances, second. Depending on the type of crime and history some got 3 months, others got 12 months probationary period. I worked very closely with the Humboldt and Trinity County Parole and Probation departments and made sure that my people stayed on the up and up. Those that didn't want to take advantage of a good deal and true second chance..."B'bye!!".. quicker than snow freezes at the peak of Mt. Everest

One of the best employees I ever had, my Locations Manager, that ran the two studios out in the sticks, served 8 of a 7-12 for manslaughter. After six years with me, I could believe he was innocent...a really decent guy and great family man...that simply could not afford a good attorney and had to settle for a Public Defender. I ended up selling my interests in my studios to him and his partner when I moved to Maui, and last I heard (year ago) they were still doing as good as the economy will allow and staying out of trouble.

Then of course, there is the flip side of the coin and petty criminals seem to be petty about everything and we went through a bunch of them. A few didn't even last a week and one didn't last the day.

There are people that will take advantage of any situation and those who will look at the advantages offered and give it their best shot.

As for government jobs, I firmly believe it should be across the board, from a most lowly position to the highest of President, parking tickets should be considered as reason enough for not hiring. Especially in government, our leaders and all representatives of The People should have to live up to the highest standards. Even though many of them it seems were "high" when dreaming up the "standards". :doh:

Blessings of Peace,

#7 Bro. Hex

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 06:42 PM

I very much agree with Brother Al (I too believe in "second chances"),

However, I also believe that it should be (and I think that in actual practice, it almost universally IS)
the prerogative of the prospective employer as to whether or not to "take a chance" on someone with a record.

I am not personally aware of ANY "mandated" behavior in this regard... anywhere in the U.S.

#8 Brother Kaman

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Posted 29 March 2012 - 06:53 PM

I am not personally aware of ANY "mandated" behavior in this regard... anywhere in the U.S.


Snip the quote

And that is a good thing.

#9 Fawzo

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 12:55 AM

The company I work for which needed this very qualified applicant badly refused to hire someone after they did a background check and found out he was convicted of child molestation.

I've worked at other companies that mostly hired only folks from halfway houses. They were interesting places of work to say the least

Edited by Fawzo, 30 March 2012 - 12:55 AM.


#10 old_nick

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Posted 30 March 2012 - 05:41 AM

I've discovered many ex-cons are thankful for an opportunity and work hard to show they deserve it. The sad part is that prisons are more abount punishment than rehab. If the prison system made sense, we'd be training them to become more productive members of society and equipping them with the skills they need to succeed. Not the meat grinder we have now that exists to break them down and cause a mistake to haunt them forever. If prisons did things properly, ex-cons would actually be more desirable as employees in many cases.

#11 Dorian Gray

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Posted 01 April 2012 - 06:25 AM

Should an employer be allowed to refuse to hire an applicant if in his past he has committed crimes?
And should this be different if the applicant wants a government job?


I think that is the wrong question based on what prompted it. Your post made it seem as though you were against hiring former criminals period, without exception and that there should be a rule (much like your 100 Mil one) to prevent someone who has committed a crime in the past from ever being hired again.

#12 mererdog

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Posted 02 April 2012 - 11:09 AM

Without the belief that redemption is possible, there is no motivation to try to redeem oneself. As such, if you want to ensure that a thief stays a thief, give him no room to build an honest life.

#13 Qryos

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 12:52 AM

~ Eh.
I'm torn on this one bad.
I want our son to get a job & become an adult at 32.
But he's spent so much time in jail for theft & possession & all those stupid drug-related crimes.
He has gotten his GED & auto-repair certificates { yes, in that long... } & is active with N.A.
& working now with a plumber he met at the N.A. convention & I just hope that he can find a life Away from the crap he runs to.
Yet it's gonna take a few years til we can trust him :(
Dammm...
If I was an employer, no way would I hire him. Charming, handsome, intelligent drug-addicts are the last thing any business needs.

#14 Brother Kaman

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 09:51 AM

I feel your pain, Qryos. I raised my oldest daughter till she was 28. I finally had to cut her loose and not be part of her life anymore. The constant lying, manipulation, and drugs took its toll. I am heartbroken but at the same time I have found peace.

#15 Atwater Vitki

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Posted 04 April 2012 - 02:42 PM

...The sad part is that prisons are more abount punishment than rehab..If the prison system made sense, we'd be training them to become more productive members of society and equipping them with the skills they need to succeed....If prisons did things properly, ex-cons would actually be more desirable as employees in many cases.



Without the belief that redemption is possible, there is no motivation to try to redeem oneself. As such, if you want to ensure that a thief stays a thief, give him no room to build an honest life.



... gotten his GED & auto-repair certificates & is active with N.A....& working now with a plumber he met at the N.A. Convention...If I was an employer, no way would I hire him. Charming, handsome, intelligent drug-addicts are the last thing any business needs.



...I raised my oldest daughter till she was 28....The constant lying, manipulation, and drugs took its toll. I am heartbroken but at the same time I have found peace.


And I can add my 44 year old niece to that list of heartbreaks, that for the past 15 years has been one of the most unbelievably rude, crude and selfish people on earth. Just night before last, once again called out a “hit” on her mother, my sister, by the druggie, wannabe gangsters she runs with. The cops have been called so many times (over 170 times in last 3 years) for her violating “protection orders” and “no contact' decrees they take hours to respond now, if at all.

She failed rehabs 5 times, 26 arrests that we know of, a total of 3½ yrs in jail for drug crimes and related....and on...and on....and on....We must conclude that there are those types that will not be rehabilitated, restructured and reentered into society, however, those “types” are the minority and should not speak for the majority of people that make mistakes, even repeatedly (to a point) and do successfully get reintegrated into a peaceful society.

The missing element here is the individual's desire to be rehab'ed.

Especially drugs like meth, that literally eat away the brain and other physiological problems caused by the drug. Up to a point, rehab and jailing can impact that person, but beyond a given point it will never have an effect due to actual damages incurred. Meth has a completely different effect on the body than any other drug and though similar to alcohol, acts much quicker. 2-3 years of meth use, in one study I read years ago, has the equivalent effect of 25 years alcohol use on the brain, liver and other organs. But I digress.

In my mind, there must be the desire by the individual to want to change or all the programs, jailing and rehab in the world will have no effect what-so-ever. And yes, we could make leaps and bounds of improvement in how our prisons treat inmates and it, imho, starts with tough love.

Once convicted of a felony (and while in prison) the inmate has no “Civil Rights" (beyond monthly access to attorney)

They have a choice of working in a OJT program or attend education class or drug rehab, no “none of the above”

They are immersed in social studies and career education, not "yard gym class" to become BIGGER thugs

No physical visitors, period, phone contact once every 3 months, 2 letters once a month (if earned)

The prison training be at college levels and degrees earned(1)


...and a long involved list of rules and regulations but the bottom line is they earn everything from clean sheets to shower rights to Saturday night movies. It's time to end this gang involved, “3 hots and a cot” mentality where prisoners have more rights and comforts of 'home' than military service personnel fighting for our country.

We know the current prison system is a failure and it's time to change that if we are ever to gain anything from people being sent there. So what if only 30%, 50% or hopefully 90% get out with sufficient training and education to become productive once again...that's far better than what we currently have with nearly 80% recidivism rates on drug crimes.

Sorry about the soap box, but there has to be a better way than what we know is a failure. It will take time, money and genuine knowledge to fix this problem, but dang it, it can be done!!

Blessings of Peace,

(1) As the "reward" for such strict prisons:
Depending on the restructured crime index (how crimes are categorized) a person could have their felony conviction be made invisible to soft background checks (average Internet/employer check) after 5, 10 or 15 years. Of course, depending on many factors and in-depth evaluations along the way. For numerous non-violent crimes, the persons record can be more damaging to them than any time in prison or flow through the courts.

Edited by Atwater Vitki, 04 April 2012 - 02:49 PM.


#16 mererdog

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Posted 05 April 2012 - 04:32 AM

She failed rehabs 5 times, 26 arrests that we know of, a total of 3½ yrs in jail for drug crimes and related....and on...and on....and on....We must conclude that there are those types that will not be rehabilitated, restructured and reentered into society

It is important to remember that is completely possible to believe that something is impossible when it is simply difficult.

Especially drugs like meth, that literally eat away the brain and other physiological problems caused by the drug. Up to a point, rehab and jailing can impact that person, but beyond a given point it will never have an effect due to actual damages incurred. Meth has a completely different effect on the body than any other drug and though similar to alcohol, acts much quicker. 2-3 years of meth use, in one study I read years ago, has the equivalent effect of 25 years alcohol use on the brain, liver and other organs. But I digress.

The problem is that the hype may do serious damage to those struggling with methamphetamine problems. "One of the major reasons I did the review is that one of the most effective treatments is cognitive behavioral therapy,” says Hart. “The argument has been made that these people can’t benefit because they are cognitively impaired and can’t pay attention. There’s no scientific evidence to support that position.”
Indeed, the idea that those who take methamphetamine are more likely to fail at treatment or need longer-term care than people with other addictions is not supported by the data, either. Unfortunately, by pushing the idea that methamphetamine damages the brain, researchers may inadvertently deter treatment seeking, both by making people with addictions feel hopeless and by making providers have less faith in their ability to help.
Impaired, deficits, cognitive deterioration, decline — all those kinds of words are inappropriate,” says Hart. “There haven’t been any treatment outcome differences. I think that we have almost exclusively focused on the pathology of drug users and if you only look at pathology, that’s all you find.”
If differences aren’t reliably linked to problems, they may be useful in ultimately helping researchers learn something about the brain, but they don’t tell us anything about how to treat methamphetamine problems. Claims of cognitive impairment—and other severe problems associated with drug use—need to be made cautiously in light of their history of failure to be replicated in careful studies and their proven ability to stigmatize people.

Read more: http://healthland.ti.../#ixzz1rAV7sJn6

Edited by mererdog, 05 April 2012 - 04:33 AM.





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