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Can Forgivness Be Real Without Trust?


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#1 Rev-James

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Posted 20 July 2010 - 04:59 AM

I was talking to someone about forgiveness. They said they forgive every one for anything, but would make sure they couldn't do the offending action again. I told them, without trust there is no forgiveness. This is why I said that.

If some one has injured you, you have a choice to forgive them, or not. If you forgive them is there trust involved in that forgiveness?

To forgive them first you have to over come your pain and possible anger toward the person you see as being the cause of your harm. You have to get past the injury and see them in a new light.

The trusting, when it is involved in forgiveness, is tempered by if the person who injured you asks for forgiveness, or if they don't. If they did not ask for forgiveness, there is no reason to believe or trust they will not commit that act again. Forgiving them may help you to get on with your life. It does nothing to mend personal relationships.

On the other hand, if the person who injured you asks for forgiveness. They promise to not injure you again. Then you forgive them, are you not trusting them to keep their promise. If you do not trust them to keep their promises, then you really haven't forgiven them. You believe they have not made a true effort to mend their ways if you do not trust them to keep their word. If you do not believe they have made a true effort, how can you say you have forgiven them. Seems like to say one forgives, but does not trust, would be only for the benefit of the one doing the forgiving. An effort to gain personal peace of mind.



This is shown to be the case in our society. Take for instance someone convicted of a felony. Once they have suffered the banishment of prison, and are released, this release is societies way of granting forgiveness. But then after they are released they may be discriminated against because of the past transgressions. Not trusted to carry on in an honorable way. Not given that job because the business owner thinks the felon may steal. There is forever a lack of trust, no matter how many years of good behavior go by, this hangs over some of them. Are they really forgiven? No they are not. If they were, society would believe the felon has paid the price. Trust that his release signaled the states trust in him or her to not repeat past actions.

I think trust goes hand in hand with forgiveness. Even though in doing this one would leave themselves vulnerable, to truly forgive, one must trust that they will not commit the same injury. Trust they are sincere in there plea for forgiveness, and they want to change for the better. Without trust forgiveness brings no healing for the injured or the one who seeks forgiveness. Healing does not fully happen, because the unfortunate actions of the past are expected to be possible. Without trust, the past hangs like an axe ready to fall. How could one feel forgiven if they are forever reminded of their sins by not being trusted

Indeed, I believe there can be no forgiveness without trust.



#2 Brother Michael Sky

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Posted 20 July 2010 - 10:54 AM

there are differing levels of trust i would say....
I, myself, am able to trust completely in the divinity of those around me, while at the same time being aware that they, themselves are NOT aware...

I know that whatever happens between us, it does not change their connection with My Father... whatever they may do to me will last at the most ONE lifetime ( because I am aware I will not carry Karma )..... and within those experiences will be lessons for me, for them, and for everyone who is aware of the interaction...

My trust is complete for it does not rely on the sentiment of my brother... any lesser trust, I say to you, is a figment of your imagination...

( I don't mean that in a challenging way - just couldn't think of another way of saying what I mean.... I feel you are trusting in the motivation of the monkey mind... )

Edited by Brother Michael Sky, 20 July 2010 - 11:01 AM.


#3 ChuckDumar

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Posted 20 July 2010 - 10:55 AM

I respectfully disagree. Forgiveness to me is about releasing anger and allowing no harmful thoughts to remain. As an example, let's say someone shoots you (on purpose) and you are hospitalized. You would probably be pretty mad at the person. You get healthy and leave the hospital. That person never apologizes or makes any act of contrition indicating they are likely to change. You can choose whether to forgive that person. To me, it makes sense to forgive them, because you are the one that benefits from not holding on to that anger. But, I would not choose to trust that person.

Edited by ChuckDumar, 20 July 2010 - 10:56 AM.


#4 Dan56

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Posted 20 July 2010 - 10:59 AM

People can forgive an offense but they usually don't forget what the offender did. Trust comes with time, it is earned when a person proves they can be trusted. I believe a person can be forgiven without being fully trusted. We can trust that a person will not re-offend, but its not always prudent to exercise complete trust until true repentance has been demonstrated. Trust, but verify. There are a lot of repeat offenders of questionable character who continue to prey on people after they have regained their victims trust.

A woman cheats on her husband 5 times, and each time the wife expresses regret, asks for forgiveness, and promises it won't happen again. Should the husband continue to be played for a fool and trust her?

#5 Rev-James

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Posted 20 July 2010 - 11:28 AM

A woman cheats on her husband 5 times, and each time the wife expresses regret, asks for forgiveness, and promises it won't happen again. Should the husband continue to be played for a fool and trust her?


He should forgive for his own peace of mind. But the relationship is still not mended. No real forgiveness has been asked for by the unfaithful wife, as evidence by her continued infidelity. The wife had not upheld her end of the bargain. Therefore real forgiveness was never asked for, or given. All was reduced to a contract, i.e. if she continues to be faithful, he will trust her and the past will be forgiven. If not, all deals are off.

When we choose to trust we leave ourselves open to betrayal.

#6 Rev-James

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Posted 20 July 2010 - 11:35 AM

I respectfully disagree. Forgiveness to me is about releasing anger and allowing no harmful thoughts to remain.


To forgive them first you have to over come your pain and possible anger toward the person you see as being the cause of your harm.


Thus:

You have to get past the injury and see them in a new light.


As an example, let's say someone shoots you (on purpose) and you are hospitalized. You would probably be pretty mad at the person. You get healthy and leave the hospital. That person never apologizes or makes any act of contrition indicating they are likely to change. You can choose whether to forgive that person.



If some one has injured you, you have a choice to forgive them, or not.


To me, it makes sense to forgive them, because you are the one that benefits from not holding on to that anger. But, I would not choose to trust that person.


Forgiving them may help you to get on with your life. It does nothing to mend personal relationships.



I guess I don't know what you mean. It seems that at first you say you don't agree, then say things that do agree.

Could you elaborate?

#7 Fawzo

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Posted 20 July 2010 - 11:44 AM

He should forgive for his own peace of mind. But the relationship is still not mended. No real forgiveness has been asked for by the unfaithful wife, as evidence by her continued infidelity. The wife had not upheld her end of the bargain. Therefore real forgiveness was never asked for, or given. All was reduced to a contract, i.e. if she continues to be faithful, he will trust her and the past will be forgiven. If not, all deals are off.

When we choose to trust we leave ourselves open to betrayal.


Just because the wife has a problem with fidelity, it doesn't mean the husband didn't truly forgive her. Her sincerity when asking for forgiveness does not directly relate to the level of forgiveness she is given.

I disagree with your original post also.

If someone harms me multiple times, I'm not going to put the condtions in play to enable them to do so again. Not only would that be harmful for me, but for them as well. While I could forgive them for the monkey mind actions that Brother Michael Sky spoke of, I am not going to enable monkey mind to harm me a third time.

There is trust and then there is gullibility.

According to your thoughts, God has not truly forgiven us as of yet because he hasn't trusted us with orchards full of the Tree of Life.

#8 Rev-James

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Posted 20 July 2010 - 12:13 PM

Here is an article, FORGIVENESS AND TRUST, by Richard H. Toenjes, of UNC Charlotte. Mr. Toenjes supports my supposition.

I offer the introduction. If you would like to read the entire paper, it can be found here; http://www.philosoph...mp/toenjes.html

I. INTRODUCTION


I have always enjoyed working with wood because it is so forgiving. If you make a mistake with wood you can glue it back or sand it out; wood forgives in ways that glass, metal, or concrete do not. Some people are forgiving, others merciless and unforgiving. Without thinking about it much, most of us will prefer the forgiving to the unforgiving, finding comfort and intimacy with the forgiving, coldness and estrangement from the unforgiving. But is forgiveness a virtue and a character trait to admire? In what follows I want to argue that (a) our common sense admiration of forgiveness as a virtue comes largely from confusing forgiveness with other phenomena, such as tolerance or mercy; (b) forgiveness understood in terms of rational moral principles (perhaps not in terms of an ethics of care) is often not so much a virtue as it is a weakness or even a vice, because it involves condoning moral evil; and © the phenomenon of virtuous forgiveness involves a particular mode of transcending the limits of reason and morality, something ordinarily discussed in terms of an existentialist "self-overcoming" (Nietzsche) or a "suspension of the ethical" (Kierkegaard).

In the investigation of forgiveness we will discover the centrality of trust between persons. It is through the focal point of trust in forgiveness, that applications to human relations (including personal and societal relationships) can be made.



#9 tatsutsume

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Posted 20 July 2010 - 07:50 PM

There have been several people in my life that have caused me and my family great harm. Still they come to us asking forgivness for how they acted and we let them back in, being mindful of how they hurt us but still aware that people can change and maybe they learned thier lesson. We must trust that people have learned what they needed to about the things they did. The key thing is not forgiving when people ask, more like forgiving them before they ask for it. There are some I still find hard to forgive, but I know if they ever asked for it I would give it to them.

#10 mark 45

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Posted 21 July 2010 - 07:45 AM

People can forgive an offense but they usually don't forget what the offender did. Trust comes with time, it is earned when a person proves they can be trusted. I believe a person can be forgiven without being fully trusted. We can trust that a person will not re-offend, but its not always prudent to exercise complete trust until true repentance has been demonstrated. Trust, but verify. There are a lot of repeat offenders of questionable character who continue to prey on people after they have regained their victims trust.

A woman cheats on her husband 5 times, and each time the wife expresses regret, asks for forgiveness, and promises it won't happen again. Should the husband continue to be played for a fool and trust her?


isn't that the story of hosea?

I respectfully disagree. Forgiveness to me is about releasing anger and allowing no harmful thoughts to remain. As an example, let's say someone shoots you (on purpose) and you are hospitalized. You would probably be pretty mad at the person. You get healthy and leave the hospital. That person never apologizes or makes any act of contrition indicating they are likely to change. You can choose whether to forgive that person. To me, it makes sense to forgive them, because you are the one that benefits from not holding on to that anger. But, I would not choose to trust that person.


good to see you again sir.i have to agree,forgivness can occur without extending trust to the"offender".

#11 Youch

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Posted 27 July 2010 - 02:44 AM

Indeed, I believe there can be no forgiveness without trust.


As a leader of many humans, I must agree. Otherwise, it is merely lip service.


Edited by Hooka, 27 July 2010 - 02:46 AM.





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