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  1. Today
  2. Quiz-one topic

    That depends. Sometimes, free will has a price. Like death. In theory, we have free will. If we can pay the price.
  3. Quiz-one topic

    If man is more than just the physical representation of the laws of physics and does indeed have free will, can that free will be turned on and off by adversity, ie slavery or any other unpleasantness?
  4. Yesterday
  5. Agnostics, Atheists, Brights, Free Thinkers

    All true. Once the purerists take over a board -- the board usually goes into a death spiral. It's a sad thing, when Atheists act like Fundamentalists. Such is life.
  6. Quiz-one topic

    Non sequitur. Or conclusion does not follow from facts given. Ad hominem. Or, attack the person, and not the argument. red herring. Or when the arguer tries to divert attention by changing the subject. existential fallacy. an argument has a universal premise and a particular conclusion(i.e. unicorns don't exist, so my argument must be invalid.) appeal to the stone. or, dismissing a claim as absurd without demonstrating proof of its absurdity. definitional retreat. or, changing the meaning of a word to deal with an objection raised in the original wording. ignoratio elenchi, or an argument that may be relevant but misses the point, does not address the question. for example, how does the existence of unicorns apply to the dictionary definition of free will? false analogy, or an argument by analogy when the analogy is poorly suited. thought terminating cliché, or a commonly used phrase sometimes passing as folk wisdom used to quell cognitive dissonance, conceal lack of thought entertainment, or move on to other topics, but either way ending with a cliché and not a point. Tired of listing fallacies that apply...
  7. One thing I see as a problem with some groups. They start as an open and friendly and then start to seek purism of their viewpoint. This leads to hostility between the group considered pure and those not of the same persuasion. It then breaks up and the purests seek ever more purity of vision until they break up again. The problem is they force people to leave and make it unpleasant to join for new people. I use "purest" nominally.
  8. Quiz-one topic

    since your done with civility im done per our usual discourses.
  9. Quiz-one topic

    Does free will only exist with unicorns and butterflies only to crumble and cease when faced with adversity?
  10. Last week
  11. Agnostics, Atheists, Brights, Free Thinkers

    The core value of the Jain religion is to be harmless. A serious Jain will walk carefully lest he kill an insect. The more extreme a Jain is, the more harmless he becomes. The question does indeed become -- what values is a person extreme about? That includes the importance of being "right". Of having to "win" arguments. IMO. I judge extremists by their actions. It's not such a rare thing for an Atheist to be rude or condescending. I never heard of an Atheist suicide bomber. I conclude from this that there is a huge difference between an Atheist extremist and a Muslim Jihadi. As you noted, not all extremes are the same.
  12. Quiz-one topic

    by nature of free will, the choice cannot be coerced with threats of violence, at least using dictionary definitions. also, drivers enter into free will agreement upon obtaining a license to follow the law regarding driving. a slave does not.
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    Making a choice to be enslaved or to die free is a free will decision just as driving within the speed limit to avoid a traffic ticket is a free will decision.
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    society limits free will in its nature. imposing rules on others is a limiting, although most consent to it once they are capable to do so. those who use force to enslave others usurp that free will. those who hold slaves that were already slaves also usurp that free will.
  15. Quiz-one topic

    Do you believe the same if you exercised your free will outside the limits that the society you live in confines you to?
  16. Agnostics, Atheists, Brights, Free Thinkers

    so certain extremes aren't harmful, while others are. that should tell the followers a bit about their ideas, i should think.
  17. Quiz-one topic

    free will. the power of acting without constraint or at one's own discretion. constraint. a limitation. discretion. the freedom to decide what should be done. argument ad baculum. argument through force or threat to bring about acceptance of conclusion. i dont see a reasonable path to accept a decision based on coercion of a persons free will, because coercion is the opposite of free will, disallowing their freedom to decide what should be done via the fallacy argument ad baculum, or threatening force if a condition(slavery) is not accepted.
  18. Agnostics, Atheists, Brights, Free Thinkers

    A Muslim minority in Burma, is under attack by Buddhist mobs. We don't have to wonder. There are fanatical Jains. The more extreme a Jain gets in being harmless -- the less anyone else has to worry about. In this, the Jains are an exception. We should remember that Richard Nixon had a Quaker background. His upbringing seems to have failed.
  19. Agnostics, Atheists, Brights, Free Thinkers

    i have recently began to wonder about extremists. Christian, Muslim, most i can think of is bad. but what would an extreme Buddhist, or pacifist, be like?
  20. Agnostics, Atheists, Brights, Free Thinkers

    I think it's an ongoing conversation. I have encountered Atheists who regard it as a debate. I should explain that. I had to drop out of several Atheist groups on Facebook. It's a pattern I discovered. Yet again, someone would ask a recurring question. If you had to choose a religion -- which one would you pick? I said Agnostic. I thought it was funny. These groups were sadly lacking in humor. They had a pile on. Rather than deal with their crap -- I left/ I don't enjoy stupid arguments with Atheists, any more than I enjoy stupid arguments with the pious. Extremists are just plain tedious.
  21. True. Have I walked into a previous debate.
  22. Agnostics, Atheists, Brights, Free Thinkers

    There is also the distinction between knowledge and belief. I can talk about what I know and how I think I know it. I don't believe -- is a conversation killer.
  23. Exactly. What would be the point.
  24. Agnostics, Atheists, Brights, Free Thinkers

    I have been finding the Agnostic label, more useful than the Atheist label. By useful, I mean that it gets me into fewer stupid arguments. I enjoy friendly conversation. At this point, I don't enjoy arguing. Even less so, when there are no objective and verifiable facts.
  25. I use the title Agnostic but most think of that title as being Atheist. I feel the two are different but accepting of one another. I have always thought Agnosticism as being the only open and scientific position. I may not believe in Christianity and I definitely do not believe the bible. Does God exist? I am only left with who knows. As it is at present the evidence shows as very unlikely and it is not likely as we can see it as things are at present. If I could see evidence to the make me change my mind I am open but I do not see it empirically or scientifically. For me that is the difference between Atheism and Agnosticism. In my opinion, One definitely does not believe there is a God and the other does not see it and does not think there is any way of knowing it at present. All I know is until there is proof I do not care. How others see things may of course be different.
  26. Quiz-one topic

    I believe there is more to it than that. At the core, forgiveness is about short-circuiting the desire for justice. It is about allowing things to be unfair without feeling a need to balance them out. Because suffering cannot be measured or undone, we either forgive or we endlessly reprosecute the crimes of the past. When you forgive someone, you grant them permission to prosper, despite their crimes. When you forgive yourself, you see yourself as deserving of happiness, despite your failings. This allows for the release of anger but, perhaps more importantly, the release of guilt and shame. I would caution that if you attempt to release your anger without making the fundamental change in perspective that is forgiveness, the anger is destined to return.
  27. Quiz-one topic

    In my understanding, "forgiveness" is a way of releasing anger. Releasing anger is good for the person who has been harmed. Releasing anger prevents additional harm. "absolution" is about releasing the person who did the harming, from his guilt. People pray for "absolution". "Forgiving" is about releasing and letting go of anger.
  28. Quiz-one topic

    There is nothing for me to forgive. My initial reaction was to agree with you about absolution. But then I noticed something odd. You asked for fogiveness while saying there is no absolution. That made me ask myself, "What is absolution, if not forgiveness?" That led me to the dictionaries, and they told me that absolution is just a formalized process of forgiveness for wrongs. So I had to rethink my position... and I'm still not sure where I'm going to end up landing on this. I am a firm believer in the power and importance of forgiveness. I dislike formality and tend to see it as useless and wasteful. But honesty requires acknowledging that it can be helpful, especially when dealing with strangers. I want to say that absolution is just a poor substitute for actual forgiveness. I want to say that it is just a way to con ourselves into feeling better. But that isnt really ringing true. A song I like has a refrain that includes the lyric "I'm more than just a little curious how you're planning to go about making your amends to the dead." I find it haunting. Perhaps absolution is the answer to that question. Perhaps by establishing formal ways to atone, we give ourselves ways to earn forgiveness from society, when the individuals we have harmed are unavailable (or maybe just unwilling?). I can see a potential for real value in that. But I still want to call it a con. It still feels fake. Thank you for sending me down this rabbit hole. I suspect there is room for self-improvement here.
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